My Willson 3200RZ Repair Thread

[PlayTheTuba]

I sure will post some. I'd bet they arrive Monday.

I assume then he means changing the way some of them rotate so they all spin the same direction? Is there a perceived benefit there?

@MiBrassFS

As he already mentioned and to further elaborate. On paper (and in my opinion) since "non-vented" regular rotors (and well any typical musical instrument valve, technically) are sealed or completely closed off, directionalty of the air can definitely help.

Ie like how the first and second valves turn on vast majority of tubas (Like a Meinl Weston 25 or Yamaha 641). If all of the valves rotated that way, the air travel would be more effective or efficient. I'm sure you already know what Martin Wilk meant. But, when I have some time later I can edit a photo to make it easier to explain and visualize, if you'd like.

I personally am not going to modify my King Pit tuba or even my 4097 (PT20)... Unless I won the lottery then I might... Or if I saved up and decided in the future to make my own completely custom instrument then I might do it... or something crazier...

Anyhow, cool project!

EDIT: The 4097 (PT20) rotors already face the, ahem, "ideal" rotation... No modification required...

[bloke]

I'll bite...

I've noticed that air flow is observable when I'm really cranking a tuba. I've observed it because I'm actually able to blow first valve slides up a little bit that are super well aligned and main tuning slides as well, but that's when I'm really cranking on a tuba.

That having been said, when I'm really cranking on a tuba is when slurs are the easiest, so whether the rotors turn this way or that probably doesn't matter that much when I'm really cranking, because the slurs are going to work with me setting up such a strong vibration with my lips.

When I'm playing really softly is when slurs have to be perfect and I have to do everything just right for them to be really nice, but that's when airflow is hardly a factor, because there isn't much air flowing... But whether a rotor rotates this way or that and whenever we depress a piston, there's going to be an obstruction at some point. Even those axial flow valves encounter an obstruction when the end up by that flat disc bearing surface is rotating around to the other hole. Trombones don't have an obstruction when they change their pitch, but they have to stop their sound anyway to avoid a glissando.

More air flows when we crank on our tubas, because we are making the air column vibrate more by setting up a bigger vibration with our simultaneously vibrating pair of lips, but the fact that air is moving isn't what's making the tuba make a noise. What's making the tuba make a noise is that we are making the air column in the tuba vibrate sympathetically with our lips. The fact that air is moving (slowly through our tubas) is just something else that's going on that doesn't have anything much to do with the fact that that same air (albeit being constantly-yet-slowly replaced with new air) is vibrating. If there were some bizarre way that we could make our lips vibrate without blowing air between them, I suspect the air column in the tuba would vibrate sympathetically with them and still make a noise.

Our teachers all have us concentrate on moving air, because that's how we make our lips vibrate, but I don't think moving the air through the instrument has much of anything to do with the sound. Rather I believe that vibrating the air is what makes the sound.

There you go. I've said so much that most of it is bound to be wrong.

[MiBrassFS]

I think that rotary valve turn direction can be noticed by some very good and/or very sensitive players. It’s probably a “last 5%” category modification.

[arpthark]

ref: rotor direction -- my Piggy has had this mod done, and it's the most in-tune Piggy I've ever played, but the spare set of holes were not brazed shut, which combined with the slightly undersized rotors means that there is a bit of air loss there (though no discernible effect on response or any leaking or buzzing sounds). It's on the list...

I think it would be hard to gauge this because you'd really have to A/B the effect on the same instrument, and then rely on your memory of the un-modified instrument. Unless, I guess, you had two plum-identical horns of the same model with the same playing characteristics.

[bloke]

I guess I need to practice a whole bunch more, so I can be more sensitive.

Having observed on social media how all sorts of people believe all sorts of things (including quite a few people which are held in high regard by quite a few other people), something tells me that a whole bunch are fairly easy to convince regarding all sorts of cause/effect situations. Going down to a subset of a subset of a subset of all people, brass-playing-wise I've even read that people even think that leaving a whole bunch of the exterior of a mouthpiece not trimmed away on the lathe - leaving it heavy and bulky - makes a difference, and even that making (identical interiors and rims) mouthpieces out of different types of metal makes a difference, and those sorts of believed perceptions tell me a lot.

When rotors are rigged up to turn counterclockwise to add tubing, that only accomplishes moving the obstruction area of the rotor from the upper chamber to the lower. My latter-era Miraphone is rigged up this way, but I'm absolutely convinced that it's not accomplishing anything truly beneficial, though I don't blame Miraphone et al for bowing to requests to reconfigure their models in this manner. Selling is the most important part of manufacturing, and - without sales - not much manufacturing is going to be possible. (French horns models which feature a complete set of counterclockwise rotors are fairly rare, and this includes from budget to boutique.) The bore of my particular instrument is .835" and it's rotary, so my (embouchure, air, timing, and coordination) slurring has to be perfect for slurs to work, because it's huge and rotary. Crossing partials (rather than merely adding tubing) is the type of slurring that requires the most player precision, and only with the huge instruments that we play, and not really with much smaller brass instruments, such as trumpets (and horns). It's because of the introduction of epic amounts of square inches of space. It may have a little bit to do (the ease of doing this when playing trumpets) with the fact that air passes through their instruments at a faster rate of speed, because their instruments are so much smaller. This is the same reason that almost no trumpet players give a damn about venting valves whereas many of us consider it essential if we don't want suddenly released compressed air popping us in the mouth while we're trying to execute slurs. For them it's almost in perceivable, but - with us - it can be like somebody taking their finger and flicking us in the mouth while we're trying to play.

OK...
My perceptions may be off and I may be fooling myself about things (as I already know and admitted above that I've observed a whole bunch of people who have fooled themselves about all sorts of things, so I don't consider myself immune), but the mouthpiece that a few people are about to receive is one that - after monkeying with mouthpieces which are very close to the same design - I BELIEVE makes it easier for me to negotiate slurs on this huge instrument of mine (again, compared to similar instruments with these features being different). It has a lot to do with the rim contour and the resistance, and also like the particular type of resonance it offers on a range of contrabass tubas, so that's always a plus. It only weighs a few ounces, and it's not fabricated of unobtainium.

[arpthark]

I wonder if some players' observations may be like this:

"I got my old Mirafone 186 sent to the shop, where they gave it a chem clean and aligned the rotors, and I also had them swap the direction of 3 & 4 so they didn't rotate against the airflow. Changing the rotor direction sure made it play better!"

Not judging at all (as someone who owns a tuba that does this, which plays fine), but speculating about how hard correlation/causation is to pin down when we modify our instruments.

[MiBrassFS]

I guess I need to practice a whole bunch more, so I can be more sensitive.

I don’t know, I think you’re pretty sensitive.

Bahahahaha!

[Sousaswag]

I’m not even concerned all that much with the direction of the valves.

I AM concerned with the terrible linkage. I noticed now that one of the ball joints on my 4th link snapped off at some point… Maybe I bumped it on my chair when I put it down? Regardless, it’s now technically unplayable until I get that fixed… Adding that to the list… Maybe I’ll just have it all converted sooner than later. Unsure.

[bloke]

I remember buying a set of that linkage a long time ago and paying a lot of money. When I got it I was thinking "...for this?"

[Sousaswag]

There’s no way in hell I would pay Willson for a new set of their linkage. I can’t imagine what it costs now.

I understand everyone has their feelings about Minibal/3B and Dubro and others. I’ve had good experiences with the Minibal links on my MRP/5450RA, and I would like to put that on this tuba.

Anything is better than Willson’s linkage. However, Keith can replace that link for now and I’ll do the linkage later… Probably after my 345 is built.

[bloke]

There’s no way in hell I would pay Willson for a new set of their linkage. I can’t imagine what it costs now.

I understand everyone has their feelings about Minibal/3B and Dubro and others. I’ve had good experiences with the Minibal links on my MRP/5450RA, and I would like to put that on this tuba.

Anything is better than Willson’s linkage. However, Keith can replace that link for now and I’ll do the linkage later… Probably after my 345 is built.

Yeah. I had an instrument with no linkage on it at all and didn't know what I was buying. Had I known, I just would have made them from scratch. Realize though, that I was paying dealer price and not retail, but it was still too much.

[the elephant]

The shiznit of these are Unibal, which are Swiss-made by a company called Schaublin but they make the German-made Minibal stuff look cheap. Holy crap! They are the stuff used by MW and B&S, no matter what they tell you. Just get a magnifying glass and the company name is stamped on the tiny retainer, as is "SWITZERLAND". It is there. It is just TINY! They are fantastic, but (so far as I know) are not made in the tiny size used by us and Miraphone. I suppose the largish-looking-by-comparison Unibal links you see on tubas are actually the smallest available. I cannot imagine spec-ing that size when the Minibal size is available.

I have about a dozen of these guys and — someday — will put them onto a horn. But they are heavy, so I get that feeling that they are "slow" whether that is or is not the case. We all are biased about something, I guess…

[bloke]

The Willson linkage that I got for a rotary f didn't have links on either end. It was very old school. I wonder if they sent me something left over. This was probably less than 10 years ago and I'm sure they were using sealed bearing links by that time. Whatever. I just don't feel like I was dealt with fairly.

[MiBrassFS]

There was someone here (or there…) that ordered, received, and shared about some replacement linkages, paddles, etc. from them. To me, they looked nothing like what I had ever seen on any of their instruments I’d ever seen. So, what? I don’t know. A pattern? Just thought it was weird.

[Sousaswag]

It’s back. Spent an hour or two hanging with Keith learning the basics of rotor installation. The 4th rotor needed a short run in the ultrasonic cleaner to work right. No big deal.

We put a new ball link on there off an old Cerveny only to find it’s too small and too short. Keith ordered a steel rod to fabricate a replacement. Meanwhile, I reached out to Willson directly to order a couple as well as those lower 5th tubes that are F’d.

As far as the rotor mod:

I’d do it again in a heartbeat. The best word I can use to describe how the horn plays now is MUCH smoother. Everywhere. Keeping in mind, it’s a 3-banger right now and I’m actuating the 4th rotor with my hand.

I might compare it to some horns before/after MAW valves, if you’ve experienced that.

The most improved register to my perception is the mid register, say, Db below the staff to 2nd-space C. It just feels like everything flows better and I have to work less hard to get those notes centered, if that makes any sense.

The low register certainly feels more stable too, but it was already good. Low Bb in particular feels better.

As far as valve action: MUCH improved. Willson’s linkage still sucks and will never be quiet, and until I convert it, this is as good as a stock Willson tuba could get.

Again, I’d do it without a second thought. I don’t know how many all rotax tubas exist, but they should all be sent Martin’s way. Additionally, if you have a rotax 5th on your Willson tuba, send it out ASAP. You won’t regret it.

[bloke]

Is there play in the linkage?

If no play anywhere - and none of the fixed-bearing links are clicky - is there up-and-down (bearing) play in the rotors ?

I'm sure he did a superb job of removing the extraneous material from the circumference of those rotors, but - if there's up-and-down play, and you didn't request that he (nor your local guy) address that - your valves are going to be noisy.

If you can grab the stop arms and move any of the rotors (even the least bit) up-and-down in their casings, you're going to experience loud clicking noises.

[Sousaswag]

The rotors don't have bearing play.

That 4th valve is loud right now because it's not the right size ball nor the right height.

The rest of them... The linkage seems okay. They don't click.

[MiBrassFS]

That’s great, @Sousaswag! I glad you’re happy with the improvement. It has to be a nervous thing to ship off your valves. I was relieved for you when you posted that they were back in your hands!

[bloke]

It sounds like this project is coming along well.

I'm glad you don't have any rotors that move up and down, that's also a sign that they're not worn the other direction, which is excellent.

[Sousaswag]

That’s great, @Sousaswag! I glad you’re happy with the improvement. It has to be a nervous thing to ship off your valves. I was relieved for you when you posted that they were back in your hands!

Seriously! I was very wary of shipping my valves; if one were to do this themselves, the ideal way would be to drive over to Martin’s shop. Unfortunately, I couldn’t do that right now. UPS with insurance was pretty quick, but they took a day or two to actually get them out.

I’m very happy with the results.