Something important that has become lost due to wide recording dispersion

[russiantuba]

I was telling a student about one of my favorite recordings and sent to them to listen to (LA Phil Planets under Zubin Mehta) and have been on a kick of listening to orchestral recordings the past couple of days (out of all honesty, I don't listen to as much music anymore, as I can't focus or enjoy while in the car, and really want to be in a mood and location where I can enjoy while learning).

Orchestral sound used to be so unique to each orchestra. NYPO had the brilliance, I feel Boston had such a beauty of sound, Cleveland had such precision and balance, Chicago had the power brass sound, LAPO had such energy and vivaciousness, just some adjectives. When I met my wife and the few times I got control of the radio, she was amazed when an older recording would come on, and even though I didn't know the piece, I could name the orchestra.

Why do I have a feeling that in my lifetime, I won't be able to do this with recordings made within my lifetime? My first boss who hired me at one of my universities was a hornist who freelanced Berlin, was a finalist for a position in the Berlin Phil, and one of the earlier rehearsals in faculty brass mentioned how mass dispersion of recordings and orchestras trying to match has killed the unique sound. He said that the horn sound of Dresden will be forever lost in time for standardization.

I find myself gravitating to older recordings (soloists and chamber too)--many of which are not as edited and are much more musical. They might have "warts" and imperfections, but are so musical. The distinctive sounds also really stick out in a very good way.

Has anyone else noticed this trend of the loss of the unique sound the past few decades?

[Mary Ann]

What I've been aware of is horn sections, where they want everyone to have the same model of instrument so they all sound alike. One of my favorite recordings to listen to is Grand Canyon Suite by Cincinnatti -- where you can TELL when the 2nd horn comes in in those passages were the solo is passed back and forth. I like being able to tell who is playing and appreciate all the different sounds.
Not that long ago I heard a comparison recording of an American orchestra and a German one, but can't remember what they were. But they were still distinct -- I think it was NYP and Berlin? Dunno really. But the American one was a bit more mushy and the German one much more precise, as pretty much according to the relative cultures.
i agree it's too bad that things are all sounding more and more the same; what's the point of listening to different groups if they don't sound different?

[bloke]

I search to see if there's a San Francisco recording of any piece in particular, because I've always considered theirs to be reference recordings. I know I'm not talking about style and I get what topic is.

Topical is that Philadelphia was always known for their rich strings... Did I ever tell you guys that one time I was walking to a Philadelphia orchestra concert when they were on tour (Memphis), Ormandy stepped out of his cab right next to me wearing his tails, he tripped over the curb (which was a weird double curb), I think he was a little bit inebriated as well, I caught him and kept him from falling on his face, and he looked at me with annoyance without saying a word and went on in the stage door. I think I was in the 12th grade. By the way, this is completely true but I don't care if anyone believes me.


Those style things disappear over time as people retire from the orchestras and even more when music directors retire. Even one of my freeway philharmonics is losing its very central European style maestro, probably to be replaced with a "conductor"... I suspect the orchestra is not going to sound the same next year.

I think Pittsburgh still has a reputation for a lot of muscle. And without meaning to hurt anyone's sensibilities, I think the Pittsburgh muscle is more focused than the Chicago loudness. I heard Pittsburgh live not too long ago from the balcony, and the violins literally sounded like a bunch of trumpets. They just put the sound out there... Astonishing.

[Mary Ann]

There can be / is distinct conductor difference too. I don't remember how long ago, but here in Tucson we had Silverstein come and do the Beethoven violin concerto and he also conducted the orchestra for a Beethoven symphony. Our regular conductor did the other half of the program.
The strings sounded fantastic in the Beethoven symphony, clearly had been worked with by Silverstein to get the sound / section cohesiveness that they did, and then in the second half with the regular conductor they went back to the way they usually were. I think what astounded me most was that they didn't seem to learn anything from Silverstein, because otherwise they would have permanently sounded better, but they didn't.
It was a long time ago because the person I had studied horn with was principal horn and she is long gone. She called me up and told me to go to that concert because, she said, I would never hear Beethoven like that again. Silverstein made Beethoven sound sweet, and no I won't ever hear it like that again. We are all way too far into bombast now.

[Three Valves]

Parochial English speaking dialects are disappearing in the USA as well.

Which is a shame.

I used to like impersonating and making fun of them!

[russiantuba]

A bit before my time--but how many times did orchestras have guest conductors that would leave their home orchestra and tour?

I do think orchestras do have some of those elements left--like the "tough" Pittsburgh sound, but it has diminished. The orchestras I have played with mainly work on getting through the piece with good ensemble--not developing the sound of the group.

[catgrowlB]

I don't really listen to orchestras these days for the reasons you mentioned above. I'm not crazy about how they sound so similar now.

Today's big orchestras:

-- F horns are brighter/thinner (like the Euro orchestras), which is fine for chamber playing, but I don't like that sound in larger groups.
-- Trombones are larger/rounder in sound -- almost like skinny baritone horns with edge.
-- Tubas are all Yorkaphones that sound nothing like Jacobs on his York. He got a sweetness and color from his York I do not hear today.
-- Trumpets are all Phil Smith wannabes.

I have and cherish my recordings of those orchestras from decades past

[bloke]

I don't really listen to orchestras these days for the reasons you mentioned above. I'm not crazy about how they sound so similar now.

Today's big orchestras:

-- F horns are brighter/thinner (like the Euro orchestras), which is fine for chamber playing, but I don't like that sound in larger groups.
-- Trombones are larger/rounder in sound -- almost like skinny baritone horns with edge.
-- Tubas are all Yorkaphones that sound nothing like Jacobs on his York. He got a sweetness and color from his York I do not hear today.
-- Trumpets are all Phil Smith wannabes.

I have and cherish my recordings of those orchestras from decades past

I've posted incessantly about my big B-flat rotary tuba that Miraphone made perhaps 10 - 12 years ago. The bell is the same shape as all of the York knockoffs (certainly the same shape as the Holton 345 bells), but the rest of it is basically a German kaiser design with a German kaiser bore in the rotors... and - again - B flat.

Mr Jacobs had a certain style that everyone recognizes. Some people made light of it, but I think it served him pretty well. He would ping a large percentage of his attacks, back off, and then add vibrato. I don't know if the vibrato helped anything other than rare solo passages (which - admittedly - did make them more interesting), but the pings absolutely helped listeners hear his entrances, certainly in recordings. I have no idea whether he learned to do that from hearing all the recordings that were made of him and the orchestras he was in throughout his life, or whether it was just a style thing of his, but the trombones ended up taking up on it and held on to that "ping" style - perhaps to this day...though those players are all reaching retirement age.

It's good - of course - too not have to rely on a strong attack to enter, but when playing a big tuba in a large ensemble I've spent some time thinking about how tuba entrances are sort of difficult to hear because of the type of sound and I now often add more attack when playing an extra large tuba, and recordings of me tell me that I'm not overdoing it.

In contrast, if I'm playing (as an example) Brahms 2 on my F tuba and executing those delicate little segments of phrases (where the tuba ducks in and out on the slow movement), were I to do that "ping" thing on that instrument, I would probably be called out - if not by the music director, probably by the principal trumpet (during the rehearsal break).

================

As far as wildly loud American orchestral brass is concerned, that began with the 1970s London Recording Company "FFRR" recordings, whereby they used a ton of microphones and produced recordings that were larger than life - particularly in regards to recordings with maestro Solti and the Chicago Symphony. There are several factors involved here, one of them being that American concert halls (certainly including the one in Chicago on Michigan Avenue) offer far less reverberation than most European halls, and more attack and volume is either helpful and/or required by the brass in such halls in America. Another factor is American brass players and orchestras as a whole trying to imitate the sound of those FFRR recordings from the 1970s in real life. It took off and has been the standard since that time. It has affected the timbre of American orchestras certainly...and - with the internet - probably orchestra's worldwide. With everyone imitating Mr Jacobs tuba via manufacturing and use, American orchestral tuba players are having to blow the crap out of really large tubas to obtain any presence, because most of them don't ping their attacks as did Mr Jacobs but just play really loud, and those tubas require being played really loud in order to be easily heard, in regards to being distinguishable from the corporate sound of the orchestra.
=============
As far as French horns are concerned in America - and then across the world in some other countries, a man named Geyer manufactured horns in Chicago and used a different rotor pattern which he had made in California for him - whereby the change valve was past the other valves instead of in front of it. This allowed for a smoother and less bent cylindrical tubing pattern in double horns. He also built his horns with smaller bell throats than the Conn horns which were mostly being used in America in other orchestras, which gave them a more blatant type of tone quality and also more easily heard, which is probably why the Chicago players were attracted to them. Just as with Mr Jacobs tuba (particularly after those London FFRR recordings came out), horn players across the country all wanted horns like that, and today they seem predominant - other than in the high school circuit, as band directors and orchestral musicians seem to sort of be disjunct for each other as far as trends go, though high school students' private teachers (at least those probably under age 60 or so) tend to steer their students towards the Geyer style instruments.

[dp]

This thread has me remembering going to discount records to buy two or three different CDs of scheduled music for our upcoming programs. Each were certainly different and the differences were an enhancement to learning the works using those different recordings, often as background music in the car during the proto-silicon valley commutes. I get what you are saying about the sameness of sound in today's recordings/orchestras...when I find the local "classical" music station on the radio there is seldom any characteristic ensemble distinctions anymore. I wonder if its even possible today to walk into a store and pick from half a dozen different recordings of the same works? Not sad but maybe wistful?

[bloke]

Are hard copies of recordings even sold in brick-and-mortar stores, today?

"Budget" classical recordings of decades ago...labels such as Angel and Seraphim, yes?

[russiantuba]

I've posted incessantly about my big B-flat rotary tuba that Miraphone made perhaps 10 - 12 years ago. The bell is the same shape as all of the York knockoffs (certainly the same shape as the Holton 345 bells), but the rest of it is basically a German kaiser design with a German kaiser bore in the rotors... and - again - B flat.

Mr Jacobs had a certain style that everyone recognizes. Some people made light of it, but I think it served him pretty well. He would ping a large percentage of his attacks, back off, and then add vibrato. I don't know if the vibrato helped anything other than rare solo passages (which - admittedly - did make them more interesting), but the pings absolutely helped listeners hear his entrances, certainly in recordings. I have no idea whether he learned to do that from hearing all the recordings that were made of him and the orchestras he was in throughout his life, or whether it was just a style thing of his, but the trombones ended up taking up on it and held on to that "ping" style - perhaps to this day...though those players are all reaching retirement age.

It's good - of course - too not have to rely on a strong attack to enter, but when playing a big tuba in a large ensemble I've spent some time thinking about how tuba entrances are sort of difficult to hear because of the type of sound and I now often add more attack when playing an extra large tuba, and recordings of me tell me that I'm not overdoing it.

In contrast, if I'm playing (as an example) Brahms 2 on my F tuba and executing those delicate little segments of phrases (where the tuba ducks in and out on the slow movement), were I to do that "ping" thing on that instrument, I would probably be called out - if not by the music director, probably by the principal trumpet (during the rehearsal break).

================

As far as wildly loud American orchestral brass is concerned, that began with the 1970s London Recording Company "FFRR" recordings, whereby they used a ton of microphones and produced recordings that were larger than life - particularly in regards to recordings with maestro Solti and the Chicago Symphony. There are several factors involved here, one of them being that American concert halls (certainly including the one in Chicago on Michigan Avenue) offer far less reverberation than most European halls, and more attack and volume is either helpful and/or required by the brass in such halls in America. Another factor is American brass players and orchestras as a whole trying to imitate the sound of those FFRR recordings from the 1970s in real life. It took off and has been the standard since that time. It has affected the timbre of American orchestras certainly...and - with the internet - probably orchestra's worldwide. With everyone imitating Mr Jacobs tuba via manufacturing and use, American orchestral tuba players are having to blow the crap out of really large tubas to obtain any presence, because most of them don't ping their attacks as did Mr Jacobs but just play really loud, and those tubas require being played really loud in order to be easily heard, in regards to being distinguishable from the corporate sound of the orchestra.
=============
As far as French horns are concerned in America - and then across the world in some other countries, a man named Geyer manufactured horns in Chicago and used a different rotor pattern which he had made in California for him - whereby the change valve was past the other valves instead of in front of it. This allowed for a smoother and less bent cylindrical tubing pattern in double horns. He also built his horns with smaller bell throats than the Conn horns which were mostly being used in America in other orchestras, which gave them a more blatant type of tone quality and also more easily heard, which is probably why the Chicago players were attracted to them. Just as with Mr Jacobs tuba (particularly after those London FFRR recordings came out), horn players across the country all wanted horns like that, and today they seem predominant - other than in the high school circuit, as band directors and orchestral musicians seem to sort of be disjunct for each other as far as trends go, though high school students' private teachers (at least those probably under age 60 or so) tend to steer their students towards the Geyer style instruments.

I’ve mentioned it before, but Jacobs was willing to trade one of the CSO 6/4 York CCs for Bob LeBlanc’s (Professor of Tuba at The Ohio State University) factory 4/4 York CC as his main horn (remember Jacobs acquired the 6/4 by chance as a student during the Great Depression, where he was able to pay his teacher with money he made from gigging on bass). I have played on the last remaining factory one, and it is such a heavy, dark, yet clear tuba. There were ones made in the 1930s that were not nearly as good, which is what the new Yamaha 623 is based off of. I have not tried that horn, heard it is amazing. I will trust my source/teacher on the older York 4/4 CC and the ones from the 30s.

This teacher, who was a Jacobs student, first thing had me do orchestrally was overdo the accents while holding sustain. The hall he plays in, Ohio Theatre, is a very velvety hall. I’ve heard others play (Also Spracht 2nd tuba) and zero projection—and he said the only way on the stage you will get a sound out is if you have a strong articulation. Zero issues hearing him cut through.

It’s always hard to hear projection in the audience, how much and what you need to adjust. When I sub with smaller orchestras (or even do a full season), I never get recordings to adjust and learn. With one, when we did some Prokofiev Romeo & Juliet, conductor said I could back off in the solos, but a former student who is a band director in the area, told me after a kiddie show that I projected extremely well. I am unsure.

When I listen to Jacobs, he had color and center. If I didn’t know, I wouldn’t even know he plays a 6/4 York CC based on the “standards” of today’s sound.

[MikeMason]

I’ve also gone to rotary b flat. Our reference recording had me sounding too poofy and diffuse. A lot of oooo,ooooo,ooooo. It was an Eastman 836, which I did love many things about. I can now “come forward “ in the mix when I want or sit back into the blend. I am a part time player and part time practicer, so your mileage may vary. P s.- no one has ever said a word about any of my horns or what I sound like.

[Mary Ann]

Are hard copies of recordings even sold in brick-and-mortar stores, today?

"Budget" classical recordings of decades ago...labels such as Angel and Seraphim, yes?

I doubt it. I do see CDs for 50 cents in thrift stores though. Everything is streamed now, and it is a huge loss. I have probably 200 CDs, and when I go, I suspect they will also end up in a thrift store.
Culture changes over time, and I think many of us were extremely lucky to be around when we have been, in terms of classical music.

I am certain the reason why I've been told the Nstar carries very well, both in a community orchestra and in the bands I have played in, is because I ping the beginnings of the notes. I don't even know why I started doing that, but it just seemed necessary. My horn is a Geyer wrap but the quite rare wide throat Schmid, and it carries amazingly well. I don't think it is particularly bright, but it doesn't sound like an 8D either.

[bloke]

Symphony orchestras are cover bands, and - with 50 or 60 people in them - they are just as expensive to hire for a show as a fairly high profile rock, pop, or country band.

With attendance waning when classical music is programmed (as American culture has been sinking into the extraordinarily banal), it's almost hard to blame boards of directors for looking around the table at each other and wondering what to do.

When someone (with ears that are attuned to phrasing and more than three chord changes) hears well-reproduced electronic recordings of really great (so-called) "classical" music (and calling it "serious" music is just as elitist, so I just don't know what to call it), they are uplifted, but a live performance by a remarkably fine ensemble adds the emotion and the reality of it as well. It's a rare experience that is probably going to disappear shortly...

... and fewer and fewer orchestra conductors in America are true maestros (with more and more conductors hired seeming to be handsome/pretty sorely inexperienced people), by which I mean that they aren't demanding that their orchestras put forth the emotion and phrasing that is implied in the music and required to make the music live...and this is true across the board all the way from "freeway philharmonics" through ROPA orchestras and to the very top so-called "big five". What I suspect is that when conductors don't demand the emotion and expression and phrasing from their players, that many players (yes, at all the levels mentioned in the previous sentence) believe that they are producing this, because they're hearing it in their head, but it's not transferring to their instruments... Today's players all have tremendous technique, control over intonation, and power, but I sincerely believe that it's somewhat at the expense of phrasing and emotion, as I'm not sure those are taught quite as much today - either in universities or conservatories (as - in the past - those were considered primary, rather than secondary). This lack of enough phrasing and emotion when reproducing these pieces is the same sort of thing when people sing along with pop tunes on the radio, except not quite that bad. LOL..

... I know I've gone on and on about this but just one more thing:
Unless everyone in a large ensemble is constantly encouraged by the maestro to phrase and play emotionally, it's going to be difficult (if not discouraging) for other players (completely noticing what is lacking) to do so, because it won't fit in with what's being done by everyone else.

[MikeS]

I do miss recordings like this. It has a stylish sparkle and is so French that listening to it makes me want to take up smoking and cede Alsace. If you want just a taste, go from 23:55 to the end. Like @bloke was saying, Ansermet had a very clear vision of sound and style. He also had the personality (and probably the authority) to make it happen.

[MiBrassFS]

Isn’t it a bit snooty-poot to claim “everything sounds the same?”

To me, Chicago sounds like Chicago, NY sounds like NY, Boston sounds like Boston, Berlin sounds like Berlin, Vienna sounds like Vienna, etc., etc., etc…. when they’re heard live or in an unadulterated live recording setting.

Sterilization seems to become an issue when their recordings are over produced and over engineered.

“Blame the engineers.”

[anadmai]

I
-- Trumpets are all Phil Smith wannabes.

Phil and his father Derek are legends in the Brass Band world.

[bloke]

Arguing the other side, I honestly believe that there are some orchestras - via their insightful music directors - that attempt to mimic the styles of legacy orchestras which are/were associated with particular composers and styles.

[catgrowlB]

Vince DeRosa actually made the Conn 8D popular in orchestras when he started using it in the LA film studios in the 1940s - 50s. He played it in the studios for many decades, and others followed. The last couple of decades the F horn sound has changed, and brightened considerably.

[bloke]

Vince DeRosa actually made the Conn 8D popular in orchestras when he started using it in the LA film studios in the 1940s - 50s. He played it in the studios for many decades, and others followed. The last couple of decades the F horn sound has changed, and brightened considerably.

I can't argue with this. One of his students showed up in town a few decades ago with an 8D, and then they upgraded to a fancy 8 series Yamaha interpretation of an 8D. It was only a decade after that that they finally followed the Geyer style horn trend.

Basically, the same thing with my own son-in-law in regards to his 8D. He himself only moved over to a super top drawer Geyer style horn (Rauch) shortly before auditioning into his current position.