My Willson 3200RZ Repair Thread

[MiBrassFS]

You’re a TUBA SPECIALIST, @bloke.

TUBA SPECIALIST, TUBA SPECIALIST, TUBA SPECIALIST, TUBA SPECIALIST, TUBA SPECIALIST… is our bloke.

[MiBrassFS]

Seriously, we’re all just enjoying that you’re having so much fun with your gear, @Sousaswag. Don’t mind us. If you’re happy, we’re happy and happy for you.

[bloke]

Seriously, we’re all just enjoying that you’re having so much fun with your gear, @Sousaswag. Don’t mind us. If you’re happy, we’re happy and happy for you.

yeah...but if he buys a bunch of parts that aren't going to benefit him, he won't have that dough to buy mouthpieces from me that also won't benefit him.

[Sousaswag]

I really wish this thing was just raw brass… So much simpler… I hate that this thing is silver. Everything else I have is either spotty lacquer or raw brass. Ugh.

I just got a “runner” in from Meinl Weston for my 2165… To the bill of $68.99. It’s for the eventual Baer 5th valve. That’s not bad at all, and saves Keith labor and me time without the tuba… If the cost is anything similar from Willson I’ll probably just do that.

I appreciate the insight, guys. I’ll compare what the Willson cost is to what Keith would charge to mess with ‘em. I’m not sure which way I’ll go, but if new from Willson is cost prohibitive obviously I’ll go a different route.

[arpthark]

I really wish this thing was just raw brass… So much simpler… I hate that this thing is silver. Everything else I have is either spotty lacquer or raw brass. Ugh.

Time to pull out the vat of silver remover or get serious with a buffing setup...!

[bloke]

I think it's odd that silver plating became in the vogue for the smallest and the largest of the brass instruments, but not the medium sized ones...other than those which are taken outdoors, which is the worst possible place to take bright silver plated instruments.

A century ago in America, a sandblast finish and silver plating was considered to be a premium finish, because lacquers really weren't very good at that time. The sandblast finish hid fingerprints fairly well for a few days. Otherwise, instruments were being sold as they had been in Europe all polished up, but with no coating whatsoever on them.

The bright silver (current trumpet/tuba) craze begin absolutely and unquestionably with Doc Severinsen on The Tonight Show sporting his Getzen Eterna trumpet in front of the NBC Orchestra.

Early on, Kurath lacquer wasn't particularly good, as I've seen more than one or two lacquered versions of their older instruments with the lacquer badly checked, as seen on vintage guitars..
Knowing what should be done to avoid checking, I wonder if they stored the lacquered new instruments in an unheated area shortly after spraying them, but before the lacquer was cured.

[Sousaswag]

I really wish this thing was just raw brass… So much simpler… I hate that this thing is silver. Everything else I have is either spotty lacquer or raw brass. Ugh.

Time to pull out the vat of silver remover or get serious with a buffing setup...!

Seriously. I’ll be honest with you, when I saw @the elephant’s thread on his Holton where he sanded all the old silver plate off, well, the thought crossed my mind for this thing. Then I thought better of it. But, sometimes I think about what this thing would look like in raw brass…

[bloke]

I don't know how much they would charge to do a tuba and if their tank is big enough, but Anderson strip jobs end up looking nice, and nicer than they looked decades ago somehow. The brass looks a lot like a very lightly done satin finish once the silver is stripped.

Of course, they collect the silver and use it to plate other instruments (or perhaps sell it, if it's not pure enough for plating) even though they're charging you to strip it.

[the elephant]

Early on, Kurath lacquer wasn't particularly good…

The lacquer on my Kurath was garbage. It was like the tuba had dandruff… or psoriasis…

I really wish this thing was just raw brass…

This is why I removed the silver from my Holton. I may have it plated one day, but I cannot imagine ever truly being finished with it, so probably not. I have thought of having the bugle plated (or lacquering it here at home myself). The removable valve section, though? Not likely, if I am being honest.

The silver had become so scarred up through all my many disassembled and relocations of things that I finally freed myself of the guilt feelings and hand-sanded all of it off. It took me four days, @ 10 hours each, to do this. I will *never* do that again. Lesson learned. However, I am very happy with the results and the future-proofing of the horn against further damage to the silver. It's gone. It can never again plague me and my work. I hate the stuff.

My issues started with the fact that most of the long slide tubes were curved due to one of the previous owners repeatedly lifting or carrying the heavy beast using the long 3rd and 4th tubes. None of them were straight, and you could see the longest 4th tube's curvature from about 20 feet away; it was that bad.

At that time, I could only get stuff from Allied and Ferree's, so I was limited to brass tubing in Imperial measurements. (This instrument has a B&M/Nirschl valve set, so it was metric.) It was also all brass with silver plating done at three different places at three different times, also at three different quality levels. Some of the silver was old and thick and well applied, some was newer and thinner, also well applied, and some was a budget, make-it-look-good-to-sell-it-fast crap that was bubbling up and peeling off. The 4th slide wrap was designed for this bugle, so it was built using similar tubing that was incompatible with the other three pistons. (Thicker walls. .750" vs. .748" etc.)

I ended up with this horrible-looking but better-working tuba that made me happier despite making me look like a homeless tuba player, heh, heh…





I wanted to switch to the slightly stronger nickel silver tubes, at least for the outers, due to the weight of this horn. I was pretty certain that the damage caused by one of the POs moving the tuba around by these long tubes was sort of unavoidable in real life, and I did not want to have to do this again. Once I had the tubing and saw how thin it was, I opted to use nickel silver inners and outers as additional insurance against bending due to a poorly thought-out grab via one of these long tubes.

Seeing all the nice nickel silver next to all that scarred-up silver and raw brass, I decided to remove all of the silver and try for the look of my old Alexander that I loved so much: raw brass with gobs of polished nickel silver.

And to avoid removing brass as much as possible, I sanded everything. I did not buff it off. The buffer is so fast that you can get into the brass before you know it, and then you have very thin sections, which is no bueno. If you slowly sand it all off using 400 grit wet/dry and water, you can very easily see when the "dust" turns from gray to yellow. If you are somewhat less than stupid, you can remove just about zero brass this way. But it takes about a week of ruining your fingertips.





I opted to leave the peeling silver inside the bell in place as I did not want to remove any additional metal, even if it is silver, because this tuba is super heavy and I regularly set it on the bell rim on stage and at home.

Oh, and all that highly detailed silver removal in the knurling on the buttons and caps? Never happened. I used another set that was lacquered. Easy-peasy.

[Sousaswag]

I do wonder now what Anderson’s would charge to just remove the silver… I wasn’t aware it could be stripped off, I thought only buffers or painstaking sandpaper would do it.

Ah, well. Long in the future, maybe. With all the repair, soldering, dent work, crushing, etc, it looks like crap up close, but from far away it’s fine. Up close you can see all the ripples, scars, solder work, etc. And Keith did a fine job soldering, but you can always see something.

[the elephant]

I have read that in the old days, stripping silver plate from brass via chemicals could damage the brass… as in causing it to have spots that are porous and weak. [EDIT: It was that the lead in the solder would leach out and leave all the joints weakened and possibly leaking.]

Is this true? I have no idea. But it motivated me to sand off the stuff on my own, personal tuba.

If that used to be true, the info I had likely was from the time of the Erick Brand manual, i.e., the 1930s or so.

SURELY, we must have better, non-damaging chemicals with which to strip silver from copper alloys today. Surely.

The other day, I bought a slide crook from Tuba Exchange. I requested it in bare brass, but he said they could only get the parts in nickel plate now, that anything out of the ordinary pattern was very difficult to get from them. I said I could sand and buff the part, and he told me he would use the nickel stripper they have in the shop and do it for me.

I had read years ago that, again, chemically stripping nickel from brass was a no-no for the same reasons as stripping silver from brass.

Yet here is this nice, UNDAMAGED bare brass crook. So, chemically stripping silver plating is probably pretty easy to do without damaging the instrument. [EDIT: Or its soldered joints?]

[Sousaswag]

I did a little bit of quick research on that matter...

By research, I mean I read through some posts on the trumpet forum. Some guys claim it cost them about $100 for Anderson's to do their trumpet in 2019... With no damage and bare brass as the result.

I'm curious enough about this that I may reach out to them just to see what they charge/what is involved

I did read that ANY nickel silver parts on any instrument is a no-no and should be removed prior to stripping the plate off. My understanding is something happens when both metals are in the chemical solution that is bad.

Interestingly Wade, I had a similar "we can only supply this part in this finish" experience with M-W when ordering the Baer main slide. They only make it in silver. Not that I really care, but, it's sort of annoying. They have to make the part in bare brass anyway! Why can't they leave it that way?

[bloke]

I did a little bit of quick research on that matter...

By research, I mean I read through some posts on the trumpet forum. Some guys claim it cost them about $100 for Anderson's to do their trumpet in 2019... With no damage and bare brass as the result.

I'm curious enough about this that I may reach out to them just to see what they charge/what is involved

I did read that ANY nickel silver parts on any instrument is a no-no and should be removed prior to stripping the plate off. My understanding is something happens when both metals are in the chemical solution that is bad.

Interestingly Wade, I had a similar "we can only supply this part in this finish" experience with M-W when ordering the Baer main slide. They only make it in silver. Not that I really care, but, it's sort of annoying. They have to make the part in bare brass anyway! Why can't they leave it that way?

It was sure easy to get stuff from them however one wanted it back when Gerhard owned it. It was more like Miiraphone.

[Sousaswag]

I’m impressed and thrilled I’ve been getting stuff from them at all, to be honest. Maybe having that US showroom is a good thing?

[Sousaswag]

Does anybody have, or know where to get…

Rotor valve springs, about a half inch measurement per coil?

Miraphone springs don’t fit this tuba, they’re too long. I’m trying to replace these old, heavy, bent springs with something newer and a touch lighter now that the valves themselves are lighter.

Oh, also, it’s fixed. Keith made the little ball link and now it’s a functional F tuba again. We’re also making replacement finger saucers out of delrin to emulate what they put on these at some point.

I’m going to have the linkage conversion done after Easter, I think.

[bloke]

Pay attention to the inner diameter of the coils as well as how many coils per side. If they fit too tightly over the hinge tubing, the only springing power will be from the two tails on either end and not from the coils themselves.

Right now, I'm lacking such a spring to fit on a factory second slide figure for a customer, as the only ones I have that are appropriate feature coils which are two small regarding their inner diameter. I've got the thing working, but I'm going to refer them to European suppliers and educate the customer on how to shop for a spring.