Help with F tuba (Wiener System/Vienna System)

[iattp]

Hello all!

So, I'm somewhat new to F tuba. I played around with one years ago in Austria (but a regular 4+2 banger). I've now got the chance to play a 3+3 Vienna/Wiener system F tuba. It's loads of fun, buuuuut, I'm noticing that some notes just sound like total garbage.

I've attached a (pre-cleaned) picture of the horn below. I need to make some post cleaning ones...

Some background on me:

I've been playing tuba since 1995, and although I didn't study it, I spend way too much time working on it. I love the tuba. I have played all ranges of tubas, including French C and contrabass GG bugle. Heck, I even play ophicleide and serpent. Blah blah blah...

Yup. I know about long tones, but the following notes are just yucky and unstable (all from C2 and down):

C (won't center unless I push it to Forte+)
B (kinda bad, but okay)
Bb (what's a Bb? It comes out about 30cents sharp, and I've tried lots of combos)
A (okay, but not hot)
Ab (lol, not too great, but okay now that I've been messing around with the fingerings)
G (meh, okay)
Gb (what? it's like nothing wants to come out. Yeah, I know, lots of tubing...could that be it?

F and down are great!

Oh yeah, Db above C2 is also kinda hot garbage.

Now, I'm playing on a Wick 5, since I have no other mp available (at the moment). When I'm down there, it just wobbles way too much, and I'm trying my best to support it, but sometimes it feels like I'm playing a D on my C serpent, if you know what that feels like. I'm used to having to use my embouchure to get the tone right on the serpent and ophicleide, but this is a really nice Alexander Tuba, so I'm confused. Hopefully I'll be able to try out some other mouthpieces next week, but since I'm kinda in a dead zone for MPs and horn service, I'm left to my own devices.

It would be really nice to be able to wrangle this tuba, since it's lots of fun and can do a lot. Heck, I can somewhat manage Mahler 2 on it for shits and giggles, but those low G fortissimi just won't come out. On my ginormous Bb helicon, sure.

Any suggestions are appreciated.

[arpthark]

Hey, I also owned a Vienna-system Alex F for a while. Welcome to the club!

The issues you are describing are not so much related to the Vienna system but moreso German-style F tubas in general. The lower range (on my current Alex F, around Eb below the staff down to B below the staff) is a bit fussy. Approaching the instrument more like what it is -- a blown-up kaiser baritone, instead of a shrunk-down BBb -- lends some results. A more directed airstream and focused buzz in that range is required. The more you play in that range, the easier it gets. Also, try to filter out your own feedback -- notes that "feel" bad on these horns usually don't sound as bad as you think.

How is the system set up on yours? Mine was like this:
LH
1 - whole step
2 - half step
3 - flat whole step
RH
4 - minor third
5 - flat half step
6 - perfect fourth

I found that a good solution for low Bb was actually 126.

[Mary Ann]

The Alex baritontuba I bought recently is like this starting at F at the bottom of the staff. Its' like I have to "make up the notes because the instrument isn't." I'm getting somewhere, but yeah it is like a rotary F tuba on steroids.
I doubt if the wick 5 is at fault -- doesn't matter what mouthpiece I use on my Alex, it's the instrument and not the mouthpiece. Part of it is relax and blow the pitch, and just get used to it. I'll be curious what others say.
That said, I'd be curious if more of a cup mouthpiece makes a difference for you. The Wicks are actually pretty deep and can require some embouchure focus, but when you do focus in the way they like, they are really good.

[iattp]

How is the system set up on yours? Mine was like this:
LH
1 - whole step
2 - half step
3 - flat whole step
RH
4 - minor third
5 - flat half step
6 - perfect fourth

I found that a good solution for low Bb was actually 126.

Servus! I think it's the same as what you've got. I could change the length of the 3rd valve, but I don't want to. I like it the way it is. I'm going to try the 126 for Bb. 46 sounds yucky. I spent a lot of time today on the lower range. I've really got to figure out how to focus the sound after the "low C of doom".

Thanks for your suggestion. I'm going to keep working on it and rethink how I approach it. Those notes just sound so shaky, and I'm focusing my air a lot. My giant BBb helicon is also a little shaky on 4th valve, but those valves are probably leaky and need the tops and bottoms resealed.

[Thomas]

Did you check the valve alignment? Misaligned valves can cause serious issues also on rotary instruments, especially having 6 of them. It should not just be "OK" but exactly on both opening markings to have the already small bore fully available. I have a small 4+2 rotary F and a really small 3+1 Eb. Both tubas low range work fine in piano plus can resemble an oversized bass trombone if needed/wanted. I found the same with the small Alex F I tried. Of course only if loudness expectations at those rather small tubas are not overstretched and if you want to deal with the significant playing resistence that they have in the low range. I find myself using rather large mouthpieces in the 32mm to almost 33mm range (e.g. as a size reference the Bobo Symphonic) on small F and Eb instruments. The DW5 would be too small for my personal taste.

Best regards
Thomas

[iattp]

I've checked some of the alignment, but not seriously. It looked good from what I saw. I guess I'll take my boroscope inside as well and see. The only other MP I have available right now is a DW 1L, and that's a bit too big. Any suggestions are welcome! It really feels wonky down there, and I've got to center my embouchure a LOT more to get the C and below to sound halfway decent. Then again, I also probably need to approach playing it a LOT differently than my giant BBb helicon. That helicon with the 1L just doesn't have ANY resistance at all. It's so freeblowing (except on C, 4th valve).

Maybe it's practice for the cimbasso I'm EVENTUALLY going to get...