My Willson 3200RZ Repair Thread

[York-aholic]

There was someone here (or there…) that ordered, received, and shared about some replacement linkages, paddles, etc. from them. To me, they looked nothing like what I had ever seen on any of their instruments I’d ever seen. So, what? I don’t know. A pattern? Just thought it was weird.

@bort2.0 ???

[Sousaswag]

I think bort DID put factory linkage on his rotary 3050… It’s very well-made. Nobody will dispute that. It’s just over-engineered and annoying.

Keith and I are going to talk about that conversation more at length on Monday. I might ask him to get all the parts ready and when he’s got them all just do it.

Regarding what’s left for this tuba, those F’d 4th and 5th tubes. Like I said, I contacted Willson directly for a quote. Keith can make some parts, but these are really complex bends that really need to be made at the factory. I’ll post pics later about what I’m referring to.

Necessary? Maybe not. The horn plays well, but looking at them just drives me nuts.

[MiBrassFS]

I’m the same way. That sort of stuff is distracting for me.

I don’t remember who bought and used the factory linkage. I just remember thinking how different it looked compared to what I had seen them use coming as original equipment with what ever model tuba that was being repaired/restored/rebuilt. It was definitely from Willson, but stuck me as sort of “un-Willson-like,” if that makes sense. I wonder if they have (had…?) options to pick from.

[bort2.0]

There was someone here (or there…) that ordered, received, and shared about some replacement linkages, paddles, etc. from them. To me, they looked nothing like what I had ever seen on any of their instruments I’d ever seen. So, what? I don’t know. A pattern? Just thought it was weird.

@bort2.0 ???

Yes, that was me... I'll have to dig out the photos

[bloke]

I was always sort of under the impression that the Kurath bunch viewed parts orders as annoyances...

...Probably, I'm wrong.

[Sousaswag]

I reached out to them directly and now SE Shires, who I had great luck with in the past, but they haven't responded to much of anything. Boo.

[Sousaswag]

I reached out to them directly and now SE Shires, who I had great luck with in the past, but they haven't responded to much of anything. Boo.

Okay, well, hollering before I’m hurt, I guess! Looks like the Shires Repair department is under new management. That’s probably why it fell through the cracks last time… Let’s see what they say!

[bloke]

Speaking out of ignorance here, you're looking for tubing, correct? All Willson tubing was brass, so you're looking for brass tubing, unless you're willing to settle for nickel-brass.

If you're needing slide tubes and you're not talking about tubes which are part of the bugle, can you supply the lengths and inner and outer diameters of those which you need? What if someone has something for you? What if someone has something really close?

If this post response makes no sense, it's typical of me, because I didn't go back and read every single previous response.

[Sousaswag]

Yeah, just tubing.

The problem is, the tubing I’m looking for needs to be bent into very weird shapes. They’re the tubes coming out of the rotors that then connect to the outer tubes themselves.

While I could have some bent the correct way, others would be very challenging. I’ll post some pics later

[Sousaswag]

I decided to talk about why I'm doing what I'm doing with the tubing stuff. Feel free to listen (or not!!)

If not, here's what I'm looking to replace:

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[bloke]

Some of those can be repair-shop bent from the proper bore tubing, and the rest of them can be fabricated from a repair-shop-bent tube silver brazed onto a cut portion of a slide bow.

It's not cheap (ie. time) - and the tuba needs to be there, to make the pieces to fit, but it's possible..

I would like to understand why those branches of bent tubing need to be replaced (rather than repaired, or whatever), but I also understand that 2D pictures never really tell the story, and that tons of typewritten words do not tell the story, either (red-rot...??)...so...no worries, and I hope you eventually get those parts !!!

[the elephant]

The word "tubing" usually refers to stuff that is straight or unbent. What you are showing are called "components" or "parts" as they have been shaped. A part or component is a finished piece whereas tubing would be more like materials or supplies.

Further, I was taught that the parts you are in need of (found between valves and the slide assemblies are called "runners".

Tubing suppliers only sell the unbent stuff, usually round or square. Makers can sell you the tubing they use, whether it is purchased or drawn in-house. They can also sell you components. If you try to order "tubing" it will always be a conversation about unbent stock on their end until they figure out what you mean. My experience is that pretty much no one but the old fart with whom I was apprenticed and I are the only humans alive who call the components I described above as "runners" but it is an old habit and it makes good sense. We refer to these bits and bobs as "parts" and the Germans have no idea what that means, using their word for "components" when talking about parts made from stock like tubing.

Language is a virus from outer space.
— William S. Burroughs

I also wonder why your guy can't repair these, or at least copy them. (Copying them is not difficult, but is tedious and time-consuming, costing about as much as getting new ones).

Dent work (including "un-crushing" crushed runners) is bread-and-butter work for most good shops.

[Sousaswag]

Right - so, if they need to be copied and will cost the same as new from the factory, then I might as well get them from the people who make them. If the factory can make them for what would be a new slide assembly, which they should be able to, then I’ll have them do that.

He’s already got my 345 to do, and I’m trying to stop giving him so much work so that tuba can actually be built

[bloke]

The (now retired) LSU tuba teacher, Dr. Joe Skillen (wonderful player...) dropped off his Willson F tuba (several years ago) for me to repair while he and his family went on an excursion/vacation.

The tuba wasn't in bad shape - and had never been dropped, but slide alignment (most of the problems) was just awful.

(Curiously, he really didn't give me any instructions, other than, "See what you can do to make this better.")

Gratefully, he was very pleased with it when he picked it up, but (it just occurred to me - having heard him play a beautiful recital in the past) how hard he obviously had been working - all those years - to move those slides on-the-fly.

My own Willson euphonium (sold a couple of years ago) featured poorly-aligned main and 4th slides, which I eventually remedied.

When it received it, there was one subtle bell crease...' no way that minor mishap could have messed up those slides.

[the elephant]

I'm just saying that fixing them is the best choice. Why would you have to replace any of what I am looking at? It is all just fine, needing to be filled and bent a small amount. It isn't like any of it is crushed.

And I have tried hard to get parts from Willson for years and never heard one word back. He is great to some folks, so I would rate his "service" as very spotty. It is fine if you can get his attention. However, it is difficult to get that attention in many cases.

I would opt for new parts. I would look at repairing what you have next and bending new stuff last.

Just how I would do things, based on my personal experience with these horns and with Herr Kurath the younger.

[bloke]

It's hard to see red rot in pictures - particularly if cloaked by silver plating...
...and I don't see any in the pictures...
...so I - along with Wade - am scratching my head as to why any of that needs to be replaced - rather than (if just a bit bent) repaired...(??)

I've probably seemed a bit contentious in your thread...and I know you're really excited about this great instrument. (I would be too!)...but (both Wade and...?) I am just sorta wondering about some of the decisions which - seemingly are being made, and why.

edit:
...and chopping away the port-clogging material from the circumference of the rotor bodies...sure...absolutely !!!

[MiBrassFS]

Just to throw a monkey in the wrench…

Those new parts would have to fitted and adjusted to your tuba. Dollars for donuts, they won’t just drop into place, especially since this tuba has been “adjusted” at least a couple of times.

If the current parts are solid and Keith says it’s no problem, in the end, you might be ahead by repairing them. Maybe.

[Sousaswag]

I’ll see what they charge me… Obviously guys I’m not trying to spend $1,000 on these things, but if they cost about the same as fixing what’s on it currently, I don’t really see the problem. Now, knowing what they charged me for a silly thumb ring, I have low confidence that’ll be the case, but we’ll see

[the elephant]

Silver plating can burn. Every joint you take apart with a torch must be torched back together.

[bloke]

Agreeing with Wade but only adding, I've had a lot more luck taking silver plated parts off, repairing them and putting them back on with minimal goofing up of the silver plating compared to installing brand new silver plated parts on silver plated instruments. The original parts don't feature any silver on the ends where they are inserted and are already tinned with lead solder, which attracts the solder back into the joints and away from the rest of the part. I can get nearly as clean results with new parts by taking the silver down to the base metal on the insertion parts and pre-tinnng them, but there's still the issue of the replacement parts possibly not fitting as one would hope they would.

Tubas are not like Legos. The closest thing to a tinkertoy brass instrument is a trumpet, but they really aren't either...

... AND STOP CALLING ME A TUBA SPECIALIST !!!
I'M REALLY JEALOUS OF THOSE PEOPLE WHO HAVE CONNED TRUMPET PLAYERS INTO VIEWING THEM AS TRUMPET SPECIALISTS !!!