I suspect this was basically AJ's message to those who sought his guidance.

[bloke]

I believe the quote was been slightly sanitized...

[russiantuba]

I studied with Roger Rocco, the longest studying student of Jacobs.

He emphasized no mechanics and the focus on music and the singing on the tuba.

Another long studying student of Jacobs I did a degree with was all about musical storytelling and forgetting what mechanical is happening.

Watch Michael Grose’s Tuba People TV. The ones who studied a ton of with Jacobs all have a similar message. The 1 time students never got past the breathing they wanted to go for.

[bloke]

But James, what is your routine?

[russiantuba]

But James, what is your routine?

I know you hate the term.

I did a shorter one, different one today by Phil Sinder, that focused on lyrical playing and musical phrasing.

[bloke]

If different, it ain't routine.

Realizing that I NEVER practice at home as friggin' LOUD as I'm expected to play in orchestras, I played a bunch of LOUD (obnoxious) tones - and (even though I'm still sick) tried to make all of them (quality-of-sound-wise) marketable.

I then went back through some Rochut II and III etudes...a few with a bunch of sharps and a few with a bunch of flats (nearly circle-o'-fifths overlapping keys). Everything sounded better than I expected it to sound, but (well...) not as good as it would were I NOT sick and WERE IT THAT I had been playing some every day.

I rarely pick up any instrument other than the Miraphone 98 (just as I've admitted in the past). I should play some "bel canto" stuff on the F cimbasso regularly.

lip trills...not something I'm paid to do, but good for flexibility/sensitivity...I'll probably re-master these...I was sort-of a hot-shot with these on the model 5450, but haven't even really tried them on the 98. (I can do them just fine - without practicing them - on the B&S F tuba.)

Yeah...
There are all sorts of other "drills/fundamentals", but it's too discouraging/drudgerous to work on a LONG list of that crap in EVERY practice session, so (after I've played a couple of songs) I work on TWO or THREE of those sorts of things, and - most often - not the same ones I worked on the previous day (or - if too busy making money to "practice" - vs. the last time that practiced).

"thinking about playing WHILE playing"... begging for disaster

bloke "I should probably pick up that Fender jazz bass and work through some bass-guitar versions of Segovia scales (simpler than 6-string guitar versions, as the strings are all tuned in 4ths)...I haven't played a 'bass' gig in ages, and - in April - I have THREE... "

[russiantuba]

I find lip slurs and lip trills to be much harder on the bigger horns. That’s why I like doing them. I do a bit of teaching to trombones and when going through some of their rep with them and finding lip slurs instead of the dah tongue, I point out how easy it should be for them if they work their lip slurs.

I use the Alessi routine a bit, have been interested in the Thunderdome but no one will sell it. There is a theory out there from the thunderdome that all your hard work, mental and physical, should be early and in one’s routine, to make the actual music making easy and organic.

[MiBrassFS]

I think that the Charlie Parker meme(?) is pretty accurate.

That said, this was my experience…

Mr. Jacobs tailored his message to each individual student. He seemed to try to give his students what they needed from him to progress. Often people try to present themselves as knowing what his message was, but they usually only know what his message was for them as individuals.

These people, who try to associate themselves with Mr. Jacobs’ teaching and methodology (sometimes as first hand students, sometimes as second hand through study with people claiming to have been his students, of varying length of study), seem to have missed this point. When teaching, they try to pound in to every student “ABC” when the student sitting in front of them needs “XYZ.”

I’m sure I’ve missed the point of this thread (I’m ok with that!).

“I’m no expert on anything other than me and not always that!”

[bloke]

back to the topic per the last post (thanks for putting it back on the rails...)

Most people who went to AJ were advanced players either with problems or seeking "the next level".
I'm convinced that his primary message was (as with the meme) to figure out what to do, master doing it, and then stop thinking about doing it and just concentrate on the sound and the phrasing (eventually "living in" the sound and phrasing, rather than even having to constantly monitor those high-level aspects of playing music).

This advice works BOTH for those who've run into analysis-paralysis problems, as well as those who are striving to notch their playing prowess up from "excellent" to "extraordinary".

========================================

Laugh at this all you want, but I believe it's topical:

I got out of the habit of over-concentrating on the physical part of playing (long ago) by watching TV while practicing and (at gigs) watching the pretty girls dance while we were playing. Did I end up NOT quite concentrating enough on the sound and the phrasing...?? well...It depends on how well I knew the etudes, excerpts (or songs, or whatever) that I was playing...from the previous: If I was "living in" the music, it actually didn't require my complete concentration.

bloke "Even the best tubas are such crude instruments, that we REALLY need to get past the physical and - if not phrasing - at LEAST concentrate on the sound, because tuba sonority is so 'fluffy' that it's really easy to play them badly out of tune, and be rooked in (ie. misled) by the broad sonority."

[Mary Ann]

My take on never talking about he mechanicals is that the teacher's assumption and stance is that if you are not a natural player, you should not be trying to improve, plus the assumption that even thinking about mechanicals when you are learning will hamper your progress. Fascinating, because it is also a pattern that the natural players have more of a tendency to develop dystonia -- example being Marty Hackleman on horn and I'm sure there are a few on tuba.
Or, you shouldn't study with someone like Jake if you have not already conquered the technical aspects, because someone like that will be telling you to do technical things that you can't but not telling you how to do them.

[bloke]

Neither Charlie Parker's message nor the thread are about "natural'" players. They're about mastering the techniques of playing, incorporating them as "IF" innate, and then not dwelling on them.

Further, I'm not sure there is such a thing as a "natural" player, as playing really isn't natural. I might be talked into believing that paying attention to those who seem to know what they're talking about (or who - simply - demonstrate it by doing), paying attention to how well oneself follows the advice (or model), and also using some analysis to evaluate the advice (or model), and maybe even improve upon it...and to do all this efficiently and subconsciously...
... might be the type of person who some people are convinced is a so-called "natural".

One of my daughters and one of her daughters are remarkably good at noticing all the details when someone demonstrates to them and then emulating all of them, but they're still not natural players; they're just hyper-observant, as well as remarkably self-aware.

[bloke]

one of the worst examples of the OPPOSITE of this:

Rather than simply living in the music and imagining just how the next phrase or frequency should sound,

Instead of that, thinking about some pitch that is about to be played which sometimes is difficult to focus, and trying to remember just how to form one's mouth to avoid missing that pitch.
================
Probably a decade ago, I was at a concert of a professional full-time orchestra. Prior to the tuning note, I heard the tuba player back there playing a particular pitch over and over and over again. I knew exactly where that pitch occurred in the music, and told a person I was with that the tuba player was going to miss that pitch in the piece. They did.

[russiantuba]

Jacob’s did tailor the message to every student, and from what I’ve gotten out of it, he was all about doing everything to get the student to “sing” on the tuba as if no physical restrictions, letting the mind overpower the instrument, and to bring out the best, most confident aspects, of every student.

In the TubapeopleTV interview with Gene Pokorny, Gene mentions that most people didn’t get to the music. Many went there to learn how to breathe and use air, and that’s what they got.

My DMA professor told me he was sitting there and said he came to learn how to breathe, and Jacobs told him “you’re breathing now. You can breathe. You should be here for the music”. As I get older, it makes more and more sense.

[bloke]

Jacob’s did tailor the message to every student, and from what I’ve gotten out of it, he was all about doing everything to get the student to “sing” on the tuba as if no physical restrictions, letting the mind overpower the instrument, and to bring out the best, most confident aspects, of every student.

In the TubapeopleTV interview with Gene Pokorny, Gene mentions that most people didn’t get to the music. Many went there to learn how to breathe and use air, and that’s what they got.

My DMA professor told me he was sitting there and said he came to learn how to breathe, and Jacobs told him “you’re breathing now. You can breathe. You should be here for the music”. As I get older, it makes more and more sense.

Truth be told, sometimes I don't breathe particularly well when playing, but - based on the sound - I'm PLAYING (particularly?) well.
...and sure, when I remember to breathe well, NOT ONLY is the SOUND good, but the good sound is EASIER.

point: Stuff doesn't always have to be done "just right" or "absolutely the best way" in order to achieve great results, but doing stuff "just right and/or "absolutely the best way" defines achieving great results as EASIER.

[MiBrassFS]

Saw this on the book of faces and thought of this here post of Joe’s…

@bloke

IMG_2335.jpeg (38.89 KiB) Viewed 3146 times

[bloke]

I guess I'll think about that one.

Once again admitting my own flaws candidly, I believe the reason that I never very much emphasized breathing in my playing is because - for several years - my f tuba was the only instrument I owned when I was doing a whole bunch of gigging, and that includes orchestral and everything.

I haven't played that tuba very much over the past few months and never practice playing it much (well ..lately) unless I have some sort of really exposed thing or asked to play some tuba solo on some orchestra-sponsored chamber music recital (or some brass quintet thing where they decide to program some challenging music, etc.), because - as I've said so many times - that tuba plays itself. (I was reminded of all this yesterday afternoon. I had a polka band job for 3 hours that featured very odd instrumentation, including an electric bass - even though they hired me. Since there was only one other horn player - who was playing about five different horns and keyboard (accordion sound)...sometimes keyboard and one of the horns at the same time - I was spending a bunch of time with the tuba sort of creating tenor voice fill in harmony parts (spending a lot of time around the top of the staff and a good bit above it), rather than playing a whole bunch of bass lines. I just didn't have to think or be concerned with breathing when playing that instrument, just as previously expressed in this paragraph. Candidly, it doesn't require much air to get really nice sounds out of it and to play really long phrases, so I've never much emphasized the breathing thing.

In stark contrast, the B-flat that I picked up a couple of years ago - which is 6/4 and features a 21.2mm bore rotary valve section - requires that I take advantage of most every opportunity to take in as much air as I can. ... but - when I remember to do this (and thankfully it's becoming a habit - it's also relatively easy to play.

[MiBrassFS]

That graphic was from a non-music related source. The “flow” could apply to any endeavor. Swinging a golf club, basketball free throws, eating a record number of tacos, etc.

[bloke]

That graphic was from a non-music related source. The “flow” could apply to any endeavor. Swinging a golf club, basketball free throws, eating a record number of tacos, etc.

got it (past and present tense)...but I'll still need to think about it.
I agree with it, but I just need it to soak in (to my 6-volt brain in a 9-volt concept/world).

[Mary Ann]

I continue to note that those were / are natural players will continue to disparage the things people have to do to learn, who are not natural players. What it reminds me of -- going quite far back, a time in first grade where I was assigned the task of teaching a fellow student his colors -- and my complete frustration that no matter how many times we went over it, he could not seem to learn red and yellow. Now I of course know that he was color blind, and my ability to see those colors made it impossible at my six year old age, to understand why he couldn't learn them. Not the same as someone who isn't a natural player, because they can and do learn to be excellent players, but they do need the instruction on what to do, which they can practice until it is innate, or, at that point in time, "natural" to them.
Something I felt the need to say, because of the arrogance I see expressed at times by those who do not even understand that they are natural players, just like I didn't understand that the poor kid I was trying to force to see the difference between red and yellow, couldn't.

[bloke]

Nothing about natural players in this thread other than misinterpretation of the point...

I would encourage re-reading the words in the meme displayed in the original post...and this will be my last attempt at clarifying the point.

Once fundamentals are mastered, I can't think of anything that could be more distracting to creating or recreating music then constantly focusing on fundamentals.

Those who believe that "natural players" exist likely have no idea how much time those players spent making the things that they do become natural to them. The same goes for "talent", which is nothing more than figuring things out and making things more consistent more quickly than do some others.

[catgrowlB]

^ But there is no denying that some things come easier for some ppl than others. Everyone learns different. If you even have a slight understanding that each brain, and each person is so complex and 'wired' differently, then it makes sense.

Why do some ppl on the spectrum (Autism/Aspergers) do some things very well -- even genius level -- but have difficulty with other things. It's because their brains are wired differently.
I myself had difficulty with math as a kid. It did not compute with me why dimes were worth more than nickels because they are much smaller, let alone roughly the size of pennies.
As a young kid, it made no sense and wasn't logical. The school teacher practically screamed at me and got frustrated with me because it took a while for me to 'get it'.
Yet -- later in middle and high school -- music came much easier for me. And it was easier for me to get good on my instrument compared to most kids in band. My late mother was fascinated with how I could switch between different pitched tubas with relative ease. There are big time pros who may kick my butt on tuba, but can't pick up a BBb or Eb tuba and play their parts to save their lives because they 'switched ' to CC and F tubas back in the day.