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Recently, I was fairly candid here about always having known that breathing is important, but never really working on it, because I always seemed to have enough air to play the instruments I owned in the past.

I seem to recall messing with one of those breathing apparatus is way back in the 1970s and lung capacity apparently was way above average, so probably when I take casual breaths I've got a good bit of air in my lungs anyway...(??) Avoiding name dropping, but when studying with someone who most everyone reading this will recognize, they mentioned in one of the lessons that they didn't see me breathing. I'm not surprised that they didn't, and I did make a note of that during that lesson quite a few years ago, but never really did much about it because there never really was much need.

This huge B-flat that I've taken on over the last two years has my attention, though. A couple of remarkably fine players have played it and sounded wonderful on it but told me that it was too much tuba for them, as far as the demands it makes on their air.

I've decided to - after all these years - get more serious about breathing technique. I know what to do. I don't need anyone to tell me. As old as I am, I've sat through several in-person clinics and watched several videos and completely understand about relaxation, the most effortless and full breaths being those which resemble a yawn, and the old school "stomach" rhetoric being a bunch of hooey... I've also watched a little bit of the videos from those two gents who emphasize being able to take in tremendous amounts of air really fast, etc. etc. etc... I even recall one of Mr. Jacob's regular students - in one of those Jacob's videos - who reminded me very much of myself, in that he could manage to play most everything without taking in deep breaths, but found it all the easier to actually do so routinely, once he formed the habit to do so...
...so I know what to do and I do it a lot, but I just need to make it second nature, because I'm playing this huge tuba a lot, particularly at home. I don't spend much time at all practicing playing with my other instruments, because (as I've said before) they all sort of play themselves. This one requires much more acute lip vibration pitch accuracy (it lets me know when I'm more than five cents off or so with my so-called "buzz", which is why it was so important too rig up this instrument whereby I can blow through the center of every pitch on the fly) as well as - again - the breathing thing.

I pretty much decided that - as uninteresting as they are musically to me - I'm going to pull out the low etudes books, tolerate the compositional talents/tastes, and work through those books with a more serious attitude than in the past - probably pushing to work each of the etudes up towards recital-quality performances (though I would never assault any patrons with these pieces on any recital).

There's this thing about getting older as well. I'm told that the lips don't buzz as easily as they did in the past, things don't move as quickly as they did in the past, and the lungs don't fill up with as much air as they did in the past, so I believe I'm on the right track, in regards to pulling out this not-appealing-to-me book, yet getting serious with it...

...and (finally) there's this phenomenon - over the past couple of decades - whereby composers (who really haven't done their homework) are now viewing the tuba as being an octave below the bass trombone (which it is not)... but they write for it as if it is with their midi keyboards, so - if we're going to play their stuff (regardless of how commercially marketable their stuff actually would be to the general public), I guess I had better be very well prepared to play any and all of it (as I can't imagine any particular music director responding favorably to me raising my hand and saying, "This piece was scored by an ignoramus, so I'm not going to play it.")

True story, I’ve been breathing my entire life. Seriously.

Hopefully it will go on for a good bit longer, too…

At one point, I could easily fill one of those 6L bags. Not so sure I could any more!

I suppose I could (sorta the opposite of sousaswag) put some chewing gum in FatBastard's rotor cutaways - to add some air resistance...

The gentleman I take lessons from is displeased with my breathing, or lack there-of. He suggested the Snedecor Low Etudes, as well, and I started working on Etude I a couple weeks ago. I'd never played them before and I've rarely had cause to play much of anything that low. I made myself so dizzy the first time I attempted it that I had to put the horn down and just sit still for a while. After that, I charted out a breathing plan for it and it's going a little better.

I think it's helping. Maybe. We'll see.

They are tedious, though, aren't they?

sdloveless wrote: ↑Tue Mar 25, 2025 1:49 pm The gentleman I take lessons from is displeased with my breathing, or lack there-of. He suggested the Snedecor Low Etudes, as well, and I started working on Etude I a couple weeks ago. I'd never played them before and I've rarely had cause to play much of anything that low. I made myself so dizzy the first time I attempted it that I had to put the horn down and just sit still for a while. After that, I charted out a breathing plan for it and it's going a little better.

I think it's helping. Maybe. We'll see.

They are tedious, though, aren't they?

Yeah, if Tyrell etudes are craptastic, these are crapolicious, in regards to compositional integrity...yet USEFUL.

bloke wrote: ↑Tue Mar 25, 2025 9:45 am there's this phenomenon - over the past couple of decades - whereby composers (who really haven't done their homework) are now viewing the tuba as ...

A few years ago, I played an orchestral work (don't remember the details) that had a low D at ff held over several measures. The conductor ask me if I could play through. Before I could answer, he said "I suspect not, I know you can find spots to hide your breath".

Mark wrote: ↑Tue Mar 25, 2025 2:06 pm

bloke wrote: ↑Tue Mar 25, 2025 9:45 am there's this phenomenon - over the past couple of decades - whereby composers (who really haven't done their homework) are now viewing the tuba as ...

A few years ago, I played an orchestral work (don't remember the details) that had a low D at ff held over several measures. The conductor ask me if I could play through. Before I could answer, he said "I suspect not, I know you can find spots to hide your breath".

A (loud) bass trombonist friend of mine laughs when morons write crazy low (like in the very low TUBA range for bass trombone) and then mark the volume as ff or fff - as if that marking is going to give those frequencies some sort of "magic boost"...' reminds me a great deal of keynesianism: "Print more money, and people will be more prosperous," etc.

Even double-low D in my F cimbasso is only "sorta" loud...and I'm a reasonably good operator of that thing.

MiBrassFS wrote: ↑Tue Mar 25, 2025 10:37 am True story, I’ve been breathing my entire life. Seriously.

Hopefully it will go on for a good bit longer, too…

At one point, I could easily fill one of those 6L bags. Not so sure I could any more!

My point?

Living = breathing important. Wind instrument = breathing important.

But, to a musical end.

Choosing music that stretches your capacity is a great way to improve. I have known people who dragged around apparatuses to work on breathing (which is fine) and they could demonstrate apparatus proficiency, but when picking up an instrument it never seemed to translate.

MiBrassFS wrote: ↑Wed Mar 26, 2025 2:06 pm

MiBrassFS wrote: ↑Tue Mar 25, 2025 10:37 am True story, I’ve been breathing my entire life. Seriously.

Hopefully it will go on for a good bit longer, too…

At one point, I could easily fill one of those 6L bags. Not so sure I could any more!

My point?

Living = breathing important. Wind instrument = breathing important.

But, to a musical end.

Choosing music that stretches your capacity is a great way to improve. I have known people who dragged around apparatuses to work on breathing (which is fine) and they could demonstrate apparatus proficiency, but when picking up an instrument it never seemed to translate.

yeah...I'm not speaking out against any of that jazz, but I'm completely with you on this, and I use music itself to work on breathing, just as I use playing the tuba (rather than "buzzing" into not-a-tuba) to work on embouchure pitch accuracy and marketable resonance quality.

In addition to all of the breathing exercises that are out there, here is one that will really strengthen the core: lie flat on your back on the floor with only either thin carpet or a yoga mat, no plush carpet or other padding, arms at your side. Extend your legs out straight. Slightly rotate the hips up to press the small of your back to the floor. Lift your legs up keeping them straight, but here's the catch: lift them two inches off the floor, no more than that, and hold them there as long as you can while you attempt the other breathing exercises. At first it is impossible, because we don't work all those diphram/intercostal/abdominal muscles that way in normal life. But give it a few months and I am sure you will see improvement, not only simply in vital capacity and straightforward breath management as the conventional exercises are designed to do, but also the ability to work those muscles with greater ease and even finesse to better shape articulation, intonation, and dynamic phrasing. Since I also play upper brass, I occasionally practice playing etudes or passages while doing this exercise.

sdloveless wrote: ↑Tue Mar 25, 2025 1:49 pm The gentleman I take lessons from is displeased with my breathing, or lack there-of. He suggested the Snedecor Low Etudes, as well, and I started working on Etude I a couple weeks ago. I'd never played them before and I've rarely had cause to play much of anything that low. I made myself so dizzy the first time I attempted it that I had to put the horn down and just sit still for a while. After that, I charted out a breathing plan for it and it's going a little better.

I think it's helping. Maybe. We'll see.

They are tedious, though, aren't they?

I took a lesson with @russiantuba following on of my son's weekly lesson with him. Specifically I wanted to work on low range .. and it has been work! He recommended Bordogni down the octave (2 octaves down from the original trombone Bordogni Rochut) and lots of pedal long tones with drones.

It has been a huge improvement. Still working on getting a clean and repeatable pedal G0 and F0... Tedious... yes but paying off.

If you're talking about the crazy low G & F that are past a standard 88 key piano keyboard, I can play those on most all tubas, but the smaller the bore the easier they are to play. I can only do a good job of playing that F on the gigantic tuba after I've played for a few minutes, as the bore size is 21.2mm and that doesn't offer much resistance against my vibrating lips.

Personally, I've rarely been able to play much lower than that.. only occasionally, and I don't see much point, other than maybe being able to mess around down there makes it more likely that - when it's time to play a low D or something - that it's more likely to be really reliable.

Yeah .. Absolutely no need in any music I play!

When I was struggling to play a Bordogni etude (#14) one octave down.. James did it two down and it still sounded clear and forceful. So I set an arbitrary goal to try to get there. Whether or not I ever do... working down there has helped my playing across the range and I am certain that the breath support had really helped my high range sound more open and free. So I will keep working it.

I wish I had a teacher who told me these things 30 years ago.

yeah...
We're I a college boy again and had to play one of those in that range for a jury, I would hope to have something like a King tuba, and not something like a German kaiser bore tuba... Again: The smaller bore resistance really assists in playing crazy low.

This is why I have been fooling around with the idea of building an additional valve section (keeping the one I have, too) for my Holton.

(Hold up on the eye-rolling for just a minute, please.)

I played some ridiculous BAT about 30 years ago (a Martin, maybe?) with a .687-ish" bore. It was the easiest low range on a 6/4 tuba I had ever experienced up to that point. However, to be honest, I had little experience with BATs back then.

Something you said in an older thread (commenting on one of mine, maybe?) was that you liked that bore size on really big US-style (front pistons, short leadpipe, so very early in the taper) because of the resistance in the low range making it much easier to fill up, steer, and project. (Maybe it wasn't you.)

I have been thinking about that old four-banger Martin BBb BAT recently, and wondering whether some new-bought King pistons on a homemade valve section made to fit my Holton would be fun and worthwhile. I tend to think not, but I have been thinking about it because I enjoy that sort of work.

Dunno…

Oh, and germane to this thread, I use the Snedecor book every day on the CC and the F, and it is one of my on-stage warm-up books I use before rehearsals after my hour-long commute. I love about half of the book and detest the other half. I think I actually work on seven or eight of them and ignore the balance.

the elephant wrote: ↑Wed Mar 26, 2025 11:45 pm This is why I have been fooling around with the idea of building an additional valve section (keeping the one I have, too) for my Holton.

(Hold up on the eye-rolling for just a minute, please.)

Next up, modular bells, modular bows, additional BBb slides etc etc
A true do it all tuba


Regarding the low notes, yea, they definitely come out easier on the Besson 994 with a lot of resistance then on my free blowing german kaiser. I am going to try a smaller bore mouthpiece on my Kaiser

Breathing is optional

@the elephant

I'm not denying that there might be a 6/4 Martin with a valve section that's the same bore size as King, but I suspect that the bore size on that instrument you encountered may have been barely larger, and the really common bore size found on those which is (this is an approximation) something around the .715" range... Perhaps the reported specific size is .718"...??...
...and since bore size changes are always added to or taken off of the circumference (where the most area is located), seemingly small changes are actually very significant changes. Even your Miraphone tubing roughly half millimeter size boost (over the Holton oem 3/4 of an inch) is a significant difference on your Holton.

If you ever get a hold of a Weril/Dynasty four valve sousaphone valveset, those pistons are crap, but their design is quite elegant with very little dimpling and a 728" bore... Worth a rebuild, in my judgment...and also slanted - as you are accustomed to that configuration. I would wager that you would notice quite a difference.
You've made it clear that you really like nickel brass outside slide tubing - even on vintage American instruments. I can get Yamaha tubing, but it's always cut to the length of a "part". I'm thinking that the American representatives for Eastman might be a little more cooperative in getting you some of that tubing nice long lengths that you can cut as you wish.

Wade,

I edited the previous post... probably only minor inconsequential edits, but you might choose to reread it.

I thought quite often how something around the old Buescher .726" or the Asian .728" or the Conn .734" bore size (this general range) would likely work really well with some instruments, but it's a size that's mostly ignored other than sousaphones and student tubas.