TubaForum.net

This is a gorgeous tuba that plays and sounds great, but I have no idea what it really is, because it has no brand markings on the bell or anywhere else. It looks just like a Miraphone 186, but has the larger bell (17.75") of a newer 186, combined with the vintage style S-linkages and engraved rotor caps. Vintage horns had a 16.5' bell. The bore size is 0.772" which is Miraphone standard. Removing the rotor caps reveals a stamped "119." Is this an unmarked German horn, a copy, or something else? Any and all help would be appreciated! Here's a link to photos: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... share_link

Probably a miraphone bell replacement. Would explain the lack of markings

Definitely a 186. Are you near Wisconsin? I wonder if this is a Badger State job.

Not in Wisconsin! I’m wondering how I can confirm if this is a genuine Miraphone with nothing stenciled on the bell.

Retrovoice wrote: ↑Thu Mar 27, 2025 11:40 am Not in Wisconsin! I’m wondering how I can confirm if this is a genuine Miraphone with nothing stenciled on the bell.

It passes the sniff test. Ferrules, flange shapes, braces, paddle shape, rotor casing engravings, bell garland style are all Miraphone. There has never been a copy made that is this exacting.

I have one at home of this vintage and can see if the numbers stamped on the bearings match yours. I am echoing the sentiment that it may have been given a larger bell replacement sometime down the road, and potentially refinished and relacquered.

Or, another possibility -- I have seen a few unbranded (but clearly Miraphone-made) Miraphones intended for the German/European market. These often included plainer features (engravings, ferrules) and often had clockspring or S-arm linkage. It's possible that this is something that was intended to stay in Europe and was made after they adopted the 17-ish" bell, and they just used the old style S-arm stuff because it may have been cheaper than the DVS system being used then.

Miraphone replacement bells have always had a logo. They only lack a serial number. Horns made in the last couple of decades also lack engraving on the Kranz. However, this is definitely something made in Waldkraiburg. Perhaps the bell was replaced and the logo was (for whatever weird reason) rotated to the backside of the horn?

No logo anywhere that I could find.

I just added an additional photo. The silver bar that supports the paddles and springs also has “119” and “X” stamped on it.

The axle hinge rod is too long. This looks like a rebuild by someone who did what looks to be a very decent relacquer. These econo-overhaul jobbers tend to go a little crazy with the buffer, so perhaps the loto was badly damaged by this sort of ham-handedness, and it was decided to sand or buff the stamped Miraphone trianble logo off the bell? I would like to see how thick that area of the bell is compared with the rest of the bell at that point in the flare.

The soft focus of the pics makes it hard to tell how heavily this has been buffed, and whether it is factory work or that of a jobber.

Hmm…

Thanks-what is the axle hinge rod? I’m not sure what part that is.

It is the long steel rod that the four levers turn on. The one in the photo is a good bit longer than it should be. I have noted that my replacement ones are too long, I guess so you can thread them to the right length and trim them to fit. Not sure. But from the factory they are not longer than needed. This one appears to be, based on the one photo that shows it.

Here is mine. The "acorn" nuts thread up to the lever rack, and the hinge rod does not extend out into space but ends at the nut. Yours extends way out into space.

Thanks for the info! My takeaway is that this horn is most likely a genuine vintage 186 with a replacement bell and new lacquer. It sure sounds good!

Does anyone has a clue what the “119” stamped on the lever rack and rotor bearing signify?

I did a little more research, and it may be possible to have a Miraphone 186 tuba with S-arm linkages and a 17.75-inch bell. It looks like the bell size change occurred around 1973, while Miraphone continued using S-arm linkages until the early 1980s. Tubas manufactured during this transitional period could feature both the larger bell and the older linkage system. My tuba may just be refinished with loss of the logo in the process.

They are pretty accommodating people at Miraphone, particularly in the recent era, and with those who run the operation speaking the English so very well.

On the way here are two of their bells with no engraving and no kranz (ie. standard rolled rims, as is found on most brass instrument bells), even though their model which uses this bell features both a kranz and engraving, obviously.

Another bell they are sending me features engraving, their name on the front of the bell, and even the serial number of the instrument which is receiving a replacement bell.

Regardless of make, I don't believe I would buy a super smooth and shiny tuba that has been refinished, because completely refinished tubas are nearly always tubas that have been beat up pretty badly. I'd be more inclined to purchase a tuba with a brand new bell but showing cuts and scratches on the rest of the instrument even if it's been completely gone over in regards to dent removal, stripped, polished, and re- lacquered.

Modern Miraphone carriage bars are constructed of a bar, five screw on posts, and five screws, whereas vintage ones were braised together solid, with square cut-in intentions for five brazed-in stanchions. I haven't bothered to make note of whether the new ones with screw on posts feature the posts spaced apart farther and accommodate longer hinge tubes on the finger levers, but - if they do - that would explain why a replacement carriage rod is a bit long. It's curious that no shop or owner made this decision to saw off the extra.
(What I'm seeing in the picture is old style finger levers, an old style carriage bar, and upgraded action rods.) For several decades now, those have been threaded with 3 mm threads - which is a pretty easy die to locate (such as in most every hobby shop in America), even if the factory threads aren't cut far enough down to cinch the knurled nut against the last post.

I haven't asked, but I would suspect that Miraphone would be willing to make a tuba with S-arm linkages or possibly even clock spring linkages (??) to this very day, if they were convinced that the person ordering such an instrument would pay for it - once fabricated. There was a lot of overlap in linkage styles, particularly on instruments shipped to America, as there was no sudden ceasing of S-arm manufacturing being suddenly replaced with the next generation, which was referred to as DVS linkage (a nylon socket and steel ball set up). DVS replacement parts are still available to this day, and even if they are some oddball length of action arm, as I needed some non-standard length ones for some special edition 186 which dated back a few decades, and was missing one arm. When a factory clings to the tradition of making most everything they can possibly make in-house, it makes it really nice for people like us, does it not?

Thanks for the info! I’m not sure of the history on this instrument. It is in great shape, but by no means pristine. The finish of the bell matches the rest of the instrument, and the bell is in excellent shape with only a couple of very minor dings. I think I will shorten the rod to the correct length so that there are no exposed threads. What exactly are the action rods, though?

Retrovoice wrote: ↑Sat Mar 29, 2025 8:30 am Thanks for the info! I’m not sure of the history on this instrument. It is in great shape, but by no means pristine. The finish of the bell matches the rest of the instrument, and the bell is in excellent shape with only a couple of very minor dings. I think I will shorten the rod to the correct length so that there are no exposed threads. What exactly are the action rods, though?

I see now that I mixed up Wade's picture with your picture...but...


the thrust rods with "links" (bearings) on both ends of them...

Those do not match the rest of the linkage - era-wise, as those are what are oem currently.

(useless information)
Between the white-or-gray nylon socket DVS linkage and the current miniature metal links, a transitory linkage was the same as today, though the links were made of black plastic (some type of plastic which was too brittle...a disaster).

Thanks all for the helpful responses. It looks like this tuba is basically all original, except for possibly a replacement bell, or is a transitional model with S-arm linkages and a 17.75” bell. Either way, it’s a wonderful instrument.

This instrument is now listed in the classifieds-check it out!