POLL: shorty/fatty (York-like) Holton B-flat tuba with 19-inch bell...

[bloke]

Showing is somewhat easy, explaining on the telephone is a bit more complicated, and typing all of those words - that I would’ve spoken over the phone - would be the most challenging.

countless parents:
Could my teenage son come to your shop, hang out, and learn from helping you?

bloke:
After all these years, I work really fast. I can work, or I can teach. No one seems interested in paying me $XXX/hr. to teach, but a surprising number seem to be willing to pay that for me to work.

[bloke]

OK...
People like Matt Walters, Yorkboy, Eastman engineers, Conn-Selmer people, and others - who've stuck together .687" bore contrabass tubas out of King valvesets - are all laughing at me , because this is my first time at-bat with one of these monstrosities...

I got to measurin', figurin'...blah-blah (the 12th root of two formula falls SEVERAL inches short of reality...which is why I don't particularly put much stock in engineers in this bidness, other than to design-but-not-build the machines to make the parts designed by trial-and-error craftsmen)...

...so - HAAIL - I just decided to stick SOMETHING on here as a "4th valve circuit beginning", and see what sort of rabbit hole I end up in (and yes, I MEANT to end that with a preposition).

I know these things:
> My desire is to "nestle" this valveset as much as possible. (After all, I LOVE chocolate).
> I don't wan' no "Keeeng-speeen" sheeeit.
> I would like to have an upper #4 slide

...so I stuck THIS (see below) on to the instrument, and - I suppose - it will end up being something successful OR it will be something that will fail.

...oh, and - as some of my scrounged parts are from a 1940's silver King sousaphone -
I've discovered:
1/ They silver plated the CRAP out of their instruments, back then.
2/ Though the bore size was the same, their ferrule fitment geometry - back then - was SEVERAL thousandths of an inch DIFFERENT than that on more recently-built instruments.

Even though it would work WITHOUT doing this, I lined up this stuff perfectly with the #3 slide circuit. I figured this:
With 70-something inches of windings, a SLIGHTLY-off angle can EASILY become a WAY-off angle, and (though it might "work" fine) it would look like cr@p. I'd prefer that the final product (again, if a success) "look like" a blokeproduct rather than "look like" a $1900 import product.



bloke "Today was a bizarre day...We sold some stuff - that had been layin' around here forever - that it never occurred to me that we would be selling today, and for some GOOD money...I'd like for that to happen again tomorrow...but who knows...?? Though it's already down to 32 degrees outside, tonight it is cloudy...so it will be no colder than 30 degrees in the morning...' bearable..."

[Yorkboy]

OK...
People like Matt Walters, Yorkboy, Eastman engineers, Conn-Selmer people, and others - who've stuck together .687" bore contrabass tubas out of King valvesets - are all laughing at me , because this is my first time at-bat with one of these monstrosities...

As though this could even possibly true (maybe in some alternate universe????).....someday, I hope to possess 1/10th of your tech knowledge

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Here's a few pics of a King set I made up for a CC tuba I built - maybe it can give you some ideas....

20201215_030840_copy_245x393.jpg (139.15 KiB) Viewed 1220 times

20170803_003227_copy_203x385.jpg (107.68 KiB) Viewed 1220 times

Going down out of both 4th valve ports eliminates that "spin" issue. Also, the small crook to the left of the valves in the reverse (first) view is removable.

IMG_2265_copy_612x816.jpg (139.91 KiB) Viewed 1218 times

[bloke]

I like that VERY much ...but I believe (or not...??) that I'm going to try to nestle the valve casings down next to the small bows (to the right - facing the instrument) just about where you've run one of those pipes...

...BUT...

...as others have more experience and are VERY clever...

Simply leading (what little I've stuck on, so far) that U-crook upward to a slide avoids "King-spin", because water can be released from that upper slide (as with all the euro/chino yorkalikes).

I WILL rethink. Thank-you!

[Kirley]

Not sure if this puts it out of "blokespec" but this little guy has worked great for me:

I can hit it and the 4th valve while blowing into the horn.
No spin and no slide pulling. Just a little lean forward.

[bloke]

I can hit it and the 4th valve while blowing into the horn.
No spin and no slide pulling. Just a little lean forward.

yes sir...

I have water keys on EACH of two 90-degree outlets on a German-made york-style valveset's #3 and #4 circuits.

That having been said, they're larger than an Amado (traditional style), and - thus - dump water faster.

I'm a great believer in water keys, have FIVE of them on my compensating euphonium, and installed SEVEN of them on one other tuba that I built from pieces-and-parts.

Thank-you.

[Yorkboy]

Not sure if this puts it out of "blokespec" but this little guy has worked great for me:

I can hit it and the 4th valve while blowing into the horn.
No spin and no slide pulling. Just a little lean forward.

I like that -

[bloke]

I think I may have come up with a good and reasonably compact “wrap”, that will fit around the tuba’s bows.
I think I’m going to build it c. 80 inches, and cut down its loop-the-loop to pitch.

Since it’s time to poop or get off the pot, I’m soldering in the rest of the bows of the bugle.

I will then harden up the fourth loop, say a few prayers, and see if I can mount the valveset on the bugle wrap that I have built. This is the least-planned tuba I’ve ever built. With every previous one, I knew every square millimeter of it before I ever soldered the first joint.

[York-aholic]

20201215_030840_copy_245x393.jpg

20170803_003227_copy_203x385.jpg

@Yorkboy
That is quite an elegant solution. Nice work as always.

Re:King brace feet: I'm sorry, life got away from me for a bit when you posted about King braces so I didn't see your post until you'd made your own. Otherwise...

[Yorkboy]

20201215_030840_copy_245x393.jpg

20170803_003227_copy_203x385.jpg

@Yorkboy
That is quite an elegant solution. Nice work as always.

Re:King brace feet: I'm sorry, life got away from me for a bit when you posted about King braces so I didn't see your post until you'd made your own. Otherwise...

Thanks, York-aholic!

I'm always on the hunt for those braces, if you've still got some that you can spare....

[bloke]

HEY BLOKE !!!
FINISH THIS, OR TOSS IT IN THE ATTIC, CLEAN UP YOUR DANG SHOP, PULL DOWN SOME HORNS THAT OTHER PEOPLE WOULD BE EAGER TO BUY, FIX 'EM UP, SLICK 'EM OUT, AND MAKE SOME DANG MONEY !!!



OK...so this entire job has been b.s...
...meaning that I'm just sticking stuff together, thinking, "OK...That looks pretty good"...with NO idea whether any of this will WORK...ie. NO plan / NO blueprint...

...but I did enough today (again, with NO plan / NO blueprint) to tape on the valveset, tape on a mouthpipe, and see what it does.

Hey...It looks like
> stuff is going to fit together, and
> play in B-flat.

(I do NOT deserve for it to do either of these. It's NOT "experience". It's JUST plain luck. )

...so this much is stuck together, hardened, and all the bugle's solder joints are 95%-to-completely cleaned up.

It's time to either mount the 4th circuit (either - being very cocky - off the body) or (more sensibly) after the 1-2-3 valveset has been mounted on the body.

I'm thinking that I'm going to to go ahead and mount the 1-2-3 valveset, then harden/clean its valveset-to-body bracing, see how well I wild-guessed at shortening each of the 1-2-3 circuits' lengths, dial in the MAIN INSTRUMENT'S pitch level, and then continue on from there.

If I'm EXTREMELY lucky, I'll be able to use a pre-bent old-style 2341 mouthpipe tube, only have to re-bend it very subtly, and chop off two or three inches from its large end.

conversion (at the small end of the bugle) from diamond-style to round-style braces:
The old-style schizophrenic 2341 valveset features round-footed braces on the small stuff, and diamond-style braces on the big stuff, so I'm "going with that", I guess...?? ...yeah, even though this is a HOLTON tuba, so whatever

Anyway...
Here's the hardened bugle, with the hangin'-loose (yeah...I'm not THAT cocky, and nor is it possible to be THAT lucky) dogleg...



If any of you think its OK to pray for a poor li'l cat...My 9-month-old sweety male cat, "Covid" (he and I are in a love/love relationship) has bobcat fever, which - most often - is fatal.
https://i.imgur.com/XuKz4jF.jpg

[York-aholic]

I'm sorry to hear about your cat Covid. He looks like a real sweetie. Fingers crossed Bloke!

[Yorkboy]

Covid is definitely a cutie - I had great pleasure in meeting him, and I wish all the best for him. Here, my daughter's beloved cat recently passed on, and amongst much sadness, and since she lives in an apartment, we gave him a fitting interment in the back forty of our property.. I think he succumbed to some sort of kidney ailment that is common among felines...?

As to the 4th valve circuit, I usually don't have much luck assembling it while the machine is installed on the horn, but I can see where there are times that building it in place with the valve set installed is necessary. It's very tedious (and I'm aware I probably have more free time than I'm entitled to), but I will dry fit the circuit and then test for fit on the horn (multiple, multiple times) before pasting the completed set onto the horn.

I think you are going to be very happy with the end result of that handsome instrument.

[hrender]

(I do NOT deserve for it to do either of these. It's NOT "experience". It's JUST plain luck. )

Fortune favors the prepared mind.
-- Louis Pasteur

[bloke]

again...

Though not completely alike, my project and Yorkboy's project are very similar (though he's farther along with his)...
...and (I'm thinking, the same thing happened with him) I just discovered a previously-forgotten cache of .689" Reynolds slide bows (I believe, a gift from Yorkaholic) that are wider than the medium King bows, YET narrower than the wide King bows.
I came up with a good plan for the #4 circuit...but could not get it to "look" (yes: appearance) elegant. I believe there is hope with these Reynolds slide (same bore as King) slide bows.

[bloke]

I'm usually weak on showing pictures of THIS stage of work (the *what-the-hell-can-I-do? stage), because - well - I'm pretty busy...

...but - since this #4 circuit is taking so long (with little progress, each day...though I'm only finding about an hour, each day, to mess with it) - I suppose a few pictures (of *this stage of work - the ) are called for.

This is PROBABLY (?????) what I'm going to end up doing with the #4 circuit. The pictures are oriented in the AS IF BELL-UP angle, so that they will fit on your computer screen.

These were/are my goals:
> Use crap that I have laying around here, that is 11/16" bore...you know: because I'm "green" 'n' stuff...
> Put everything OFF TO THE SIDE of the valveset, to simplify things, and to promote "nestling" of the valveset.
> Make it quite compact (ie. look pretty good, and not some carnival-ride-lookin' crap hanging disproportionately off the side of the instrument), yet avoid using super-tight turns.
...ie. several can-easily-conflict-with-each-other requirements

[bloke]

This makes my head hurt...and buffing these parts gets crap all in my hair and ears...
...but I'm going back out to the shop to see what happens...

EDIT:

I cleaned-up/de-dented a bunch of salvaged old King inside/outside tubing, managed to beat spacers out of some of the ancient/formerly-silver-plated outside tubes, cleaned-up/de-dented some King and Reynolds (same bore) slide bows, assembled everything (sort of), and had Mrs. bloke (with clipboard) taking down careful measurements, and adding them up on her phone calculator.

I'm getting 71.4" + the tubing added in the piston (when the air column is diverted into the 4th circuit), so probably about 72.5", which seems pretty dang good. I'm going to go for broke, will find/make some braces, and proceed to harden up this circuit - which will put me MUCH closer to completion of this project.
For the loop-the-loop portion, I am "burying" inside tubing within outside tubing (so that the entire circuit has a consistent same-O.D. appearance). Theoretically, I could have FOUR #4 circuit slides but (as a practical matter) the winding is going to be so compact, that things probably would not clear (for moving at least one of those two theoretical inner-loop #4 slides) and - well... - they're just not needed at all...so (as I have a very nice UPPER and a very nice LOWER #4 slide) those inner loop #4 slides are NOT going to happen.

For those of you who MIGHT know what I'm talking about:
I'm using NONE of the three factory-made King "candy-cane" #4 bows.

If anyone is curious:
Sanding off silver plating, and THEN buffing the surface smooth is MUCH faster (and less consuming of resources) than removing the silver plating completely by buffing alone.

[bloke]

OK...The 4th circuit is not hardened (neither tubes soldered up, nor braces mounted), but I've triple-checked the circuit length, (hopefully) built it just a tad short (for pulling) and IF too short, have a don't-have-to-tear-everything-apart way to lengthen this circuit.

Everything in the #4 circuit, though, is clean, dent-free, slides nice, seems to fit, and is ready for (probably several hours of) hardening it up...
...and YES, the loop-the-loop portion IS double-layer tubing.

[Tubajug]

Very nice! When you "stuff" the tubing with inner tubing, do you solder it in at all or is it just sitting in there?

[Yorkboy]