Topic later morphed to Gabrieli LP: 1929 Holton 4-valve front-action baritone/euphonium

[bloke]

This instrument has been sold. Thank-you for the interest!

This instrument is in remarkable condition, other than silver plating wear.
The pistons (not clean) appear very ugly in the picture, but are not the least bit loose in their casings. The instrument plays very "strong" (NOT in the least "leaky-ish") and with a very pretty sound - whether with an 11C, or with a 51D.
This instrument features an 11 inch upright bell, (per typical) a bore size slightly smaller than with an English-style comp. euph. (will measure), and both the #1 and #3 circuits feature BOTH an UPPER slide, and a LOWER slide.
The engraving is quite elaborate.

Oddly - just ABOVE

"79999
FRANK HOLTON
ELKHORN, WIS."

deeply engraved on one of the valve casings is the number "1 1/2" ...bore size: .578" (large!)


The case is suffering, but (depending on how comparable to a King upright-bell American-style baritone horn) it might (??) fit in a Conn-Selmer (King 627) case. At 30 inches, this Holton baritone horn is quite tall. Truth be told, though, the Holton case IS repairable - with some good TiteBond glue, some Tolex (black covering), and some generic corner brackets.

NEITHER the top bow NOR the bottom bow are smashed in at all, the mouthpipe is dent-free, there are NO patches, the bell is gently creased, and there are other bumps. The only (wrong) replacement parts appear to be a Bundy/Blessing (??) waterkey on the #4 slide. I see NO solder repairs (other than that water key replacement) on this entire instrument.

The bright silver inside the bell is intact, but the satin silver exterior is really quite worn. This would be a wonderful candidate for a new satin finish and a replate job...it would REALLY pop.

The overall pitch (much like those Holton front-action "Monster" E-flat tubas from the same era) is quite low.
All the way in, I'm able to get it up to only 30-cent flat to A=440.
That having been said, JUST ABOVE the main slide outside tubes, there is a good bit of cylindrical dogleg (large side) and a small dogleg (small side) that can both be shortened. With a 9-foot bugle, it doesn't take a whole lot of removal of length to raise the pitch that much. Otherwise, the 2nd partial (lower B-flat) is a bit lower than the other partials, but most of the RELATIVE tuning seems to be quite good.

$650 (plus FedExGround or USPS) takes it AS IS.
For $300 more ($950 total, plus shipping cost), I'll do about $500 worth of work on it, (including the A=440 thing).
(that additional $300 would define: "dent-free, clean (not shined...other than the shining that occurs when cleaning), up-to-modern-pitch, new corks/felts, missing finger button pearl replaced". I am NOT offering to do any case repairs.
reference: The Jinbao/Wessex bell-FRONT King 625-4 knock-off is $1500, and - from what I see on the website - requiring a significant deposit, and with a 6-month wait.

This (when slicked out - by someone else or me - is a nice (gorgeous, if re-plated) period instrument with NOT leaky (though not plated) valves that sounds beautiful, is an easy-player, and and easy (front-action cradle-able) holder.







Your GOOD personal check or USPS money order are fine.
I have my own credit card processing, so I'd prefer to not use PayPal unless you've a balance there.
If I use mine, the fee (please) is 2-3/4%.

If you are in Tennessee, I will need to additionally charge our (high) sales tax, though Tennessee really don't charge any other types of taxes - other than on gasoline.

I'm offering this here - to my tubaforum bud's - FIRST, and will wait a bit to put it on my own business' facebook page, and/or on a facebook "tubas and euphoniums for sale" page. It's neither any better nor any worse than described. I never over-represent, and my goal is that ALL buyers receive items from me with NO surprises and NO disappointments...You all already know all of that, yes...??

[windshieldbug]

The "1 1/2" would be the bore size, but I do not know what it equates to...

Holton euphonium bores I've seen "0", "1" & "1 1/2".

[bloke]

The "1 1/2" would be the bore size, but I do not know what it equates to...

Holton euphonium bores I've seen "0", "1" & "1 1/2".

Thank-you!
I suspected so, and the bore size IS quite large: (just measured) 37/64ths inch - (.578")

This is right up nearly at the same bore size as the bore of a Besson "Prestige" top-of-the-line compensating euphonium.

For even mo' money (...but not a ton more), I'll be WILLING to ship it (to a buyer) in READY-TO-SEND-OFF-TO-ANDERSON (for masking, and silver plating) CONDITION.

I would ship it COMPLETELY clean and DRY, but the buyer (no valve oil / no slide grease) could toot on it (wearing soft clean white gloves) for a bit, and then send it on to Anderson (for a new satin-silver finish, with bright-silver bell interior and bright-silver engraving area).

[iiipopes]

And unless you "need" the low range (below F below the staff), 4-valve non-comp is a preferable horn to a 4-valve comp euph for community band, since the only note from F below the staff that needs "fixing" is 2nd line B nat: less stuffy, easier to maintain.

If I had not purchased the prototype BR115 from Wessex when it was on sale a few years ago, I'd be all over this horn. Having played both the smaller "American" bore and this bore, the larger bore helps the tone immensely, especially in the lower register, but without getting tubby, as some of the newer 4-valve comp euphs with near-french-c-tuba bore get.

I recommend using a Denis Wick Ultra 6 small shank mouthpiece for it: essentially a 6 1/2 AL, but with a deeper cup to keep the low range from getting grainy, helps the middle register sing, and with proper breath, since the throat is more like a 6 1/2 AL than the larger throats of the more famous euph mouthpieces, lends support to the upper register.

[bloke]

I played some tunes on it, today...
' starting to really like it...
I really do NOT need it, and hope I do not get "hooked" on it.

If this were a 4-valve version of a King 627, I'd (simply) have shined it up, and would be advertising it locally to band directors...but - at least, to me - this one is much more special, and deserves to not be "all toe up" by school kids.

[LargeTuba]

Wow!

I think if I were in the market for a euph this would be my first stop!

[Bob Kolada]

Looks nice! How is the low range (obvious intonation issues aside)?

[bloke]

Looks nice! How is the low range (obvious intonation issues aside)?

Of course (as stated) it's all below pitch and - without compensating valves - several pitches are NOT in-tune with the (low) pitch...
(sorry!) I do not own any large-cupped small-shank mouthpieces, but - fwiw - here is a demo of the "low range" with a small-cupped mouthpiece...
...so it ain't "purdy". HOWEVER, it should be clear that the range is [1] accessible and [2] strong, yes?

If - INSTEAD - you ask me to play a couple of "songs" (or band excerpts) on it, I can ACTUALLY make it sound (though: below pitch) "NICE".


Someone PLEASE purchase this.
I'm REALLY starting to LIKE it, and/but do NOT need it.
It will be EASY (for me or your tech) to the the tuning (even with a bit of a pull) up to A=440.

If the main slide is chopped (rather than moved up), there's actually PLENTY of room (in the existing dogleg) to "5th-rotary-valve/fully-chromatic" this thing. A rotor salvaged from one of those 1970's F. E. Olds 2-valve GG contra's would be the ideal bore size to affect that enhancement.
ACTUALLY, the BOTTOM BOW features straight/cylindrical-enough leg-ends to SHORTEN THE BOTTOM BOW (rather than shortening the main slide).

[jtm]

...
If the main slide is chopped (rather than moved up), there's actually PLENTY of room (in the existing dogleg) to "5th-rotary-valve/fully-chromatic" this thing. A rotor salvaged from one of those 1970's F. E. Olds 2-valve GG contra's would be the ideal bore size to affect that enhancement.
ACTUALLY, the BOTTOM BOW features straight/cylindrical-enough leg-ends to SHORTEN THE BOTTOM BOW (rather than shortening the main slide).[/b]

Sounds like you're already smitten

[bloke]

It's a really nice piece (and potentially SUPER-nice)...but I have a big (kaiser) tons-o'-valves German "bariton" and an all-the-notes "euphonium"...along with a bass trumpet and a valve trombone...and ALL of those are "doubles" for me.

[jtm]

I'm tempted, but then I'd have to get rid of a perfectly fine YEP-321.

[matt g]

It’s a good time to remind people that the first track of *that* Gabrieli album had Henry Charles Smith playing a similar USA made baritone on the first track and it sounds darn near like a bass tuba.

[Three Valves]

...hope I do not get "hooked" on it.

Baby, baby don’t get hooked on me....

Wrong topic.

[bloke]

I was remiss, in that I did not previously mark this SOLD.

I have not collected any funds, but only because I have not asked the buyer (a person I know) to send any, yet.

Thanks so much to the other gentlemen who expressed strong interest.

I'll be offering up a YEP-321 fairly soon - which will be smoothed out and cleaned up.
It's similar, in that it is 4-valve NON-compensating - and "good", but different in that it's an English-style top-action euphonium, and (well...) of no historical interest.

Though I've already effected quite a bit of the needed dent removal of this Holton, I might post about in the "repairs" forum...including shortening it from "no foolin' " L. P. (low pitch) up to centering around A=440 tuning.

[Bob Kolada]

It’s a good time to remind people that the first track of *that* Gabrieli album had Henry Charles Smith playing a similar USA made baritone on the first track and it sounds darn near like a bass tuba.

The Philadelphia recording (so says the internet!)?

[matt g]

It’s a good time to remind people that the first track of *that* Gabrieli album had Henry Charles Smith playing a similar USA made baritone on the first track and it sounds darn near like a bass tuba.

The Philadelphia recording (so says the internet!)?

Philly, Chicago, and Cleveland.

[bloke]

I'm thinking that the record label (Columbia) was the one that typically recorded Philadelphia, and thus - on that l.p. - their brass section was subtly made out as the "headliners", and was also featured on a few more of the pieces.

Ormandy/Philly - during that era - were much more "household" than *Reiner/Chicago or Szell/Cleveland, as far more of their recordings appeared in regular department stores' record departments.



As Columbia was the record company of Ormandy/Philly, Decca (aka London) was later the record company of Solti/Chicago, and (both Solti and Decca) did a great deal to bring more national/international publicity to the Chicago Orchestra.

___________________________________________
*Reiner had retired by the time this L.P. was issued, but his few-years replacement (between Reiner and Solti) didn't make much of a name for himself.

[ken herrick]

To quote Bloke:
*Reiner had retired by the time this L.P. was issued, but his few-years replacement (between Reiner and Solti) didn't make much of a name for himself.

So true - though the CSO did sometimes perform very well!

Jean Martinon who succeeded Reiner seemed to be trying to change the CSO from a "German" style to a "French" style (Boston was much more in the French mold) which would have reflected his background.
A major disruptive factor at the time was his incendiary relationship with principal oboist Ray Still whom Martinon wanted to fire. (Still won the battle and when he returned after a break was greeted as a hero by the audience .

I remember hearing Smith do a solo at Interlochen in 63 or 64. Very nice BUT, there was a high school student there then whose sound was preferred by many - a young Brian Bowman with his Besson.

[bloke]

Thank you for those recollections!
I am now reminded of my first exposure to Mr. Bowman in 1973, when the Navy Band was on tour and performed in my high school auditorium to an embarrassingly-small audience. He played an amazing solo (with his satin silver Besson) which popped my eyes out.
It was also the first time that I ever heard live professional-level French horn players “step on the gas“ when they played Dragon’s arrangement of America the Beautiful.
I heard several of the DC bands over my last two years in high school, including the Marines…and I may be confusing memories…but I seem to remember that one of the bands featured a pair of fixed upright bell front-action four valve 6/4 Martin tubas (arguably, the most in-tune-bugle 6/4 tubas ever built). At the time, I did not know what they were, but my memory of their appearance overlapped with later photographic in-person sightings of that model. I also believe that I remember that they seemed to sport (albeit darkened with some age) original lacquer - that was in good condition. It seems to make sense that the lacquer would have been darkened, because the original-lacquer Martin tubas that I have since encountered were lacquered with nitrocellulose lacquer.

[matt g]

@bloke, one of the service bands had a set of 6/4 Martins in both upright and side action so that the back row could point outwards on both sides, iirc. I also recall that one of the photos showing that had a young Harvey Phillips in frame, so it might’ve been the Army Field Band?