Can you use the same mouthpiece on bass trombone and euphonium?

[bort2.0]

Can you? Should you? Or are they actually different?

Yeah yeah, different instruments, and what works on one might not work on the other just like we picky tuba players...

Anyway...

[LeMark]

depends on what you think of as a bass trombone mouthpiece. personally, I think anything larger than a 3G would be very difficult to use on a Euph. I use a 4g, and that's considered very large

[matt g]

A Bach 5G or Schilke 51D are good starting points for euphonium mouthpieces.

Most tuba players that play bass trombone use a Schilke 60 or Bach 1G sized (28-29mm rim ID) mouthpiece with a big cup.

These usually sound pretty dead on a good euphonium.

[iiipopes]

Technically, yes. Should a player? No. Decades ago, before the "modern age" of mouthpieces, yes, even Denis Wick confessed that his euph mouthpieces were derived from bone mouthpiece designs. But with the modern wide selection of euph mouthpieces, with input from Steven Mead and others, there is no reason to use a bone mouthpiece for euph.

Case in point: for people who prefer a slightly smaller diameter mouthpiece, or hasn't quite "grown into" something like a 5G or 51D, or play an American concert band "baritone," (King, Conn, Reynolds, Martin, etc., hybrid euph/bari instruments) the standards were the Schilke 50 and Bach 6 1/2 AL. But now Wick has the Ultra 6 in all three shank sizes. It is like a 6 1/2 AL, but with a deeper, better designed cup with matching throat and backbore so that the low range is not grainy, the mid register sings, and the upper register has security.

Now that we have Wick Mead, Wick Ultra, Perantucci, Alliance, and many others, along with Elliot, Laskey, Marcinkiewicz, etc., there is no need to risk a euph sounding like a bone. For further reference and comparison: http://www.dwerden.com/Mouthpieces/trom ... honium.cfm

[bort2.0]

Thanks guys! I sure don't know a whole lot about it, but this is certainly helpful. A lot to learn...

[donn]

To be fair, though, there have been stellar bass trombone players who don't play the very largest mouthpieces. George Roberts for example, played an "oversized" 1½G. Granted, that's still not a typical euphonium mouthpiece. Maybe it depends in part on where the instrument is going - skinny slide tuba, oversize tenor, etc.

For amusement, a George Roberts anecdote, from Interview with George Roberts

There was a time, when I first went out to LA...one of the big contractors who did most of the hiring, he worked for Bobby Helfer. He wouldn't really hire me at the very beginning because I was a jazzer. Oh, he thought that a jazzer couldn't play legitimate or semi-legit, like they do on motion pictures. Like, all these big pictures had Alfred Newman and Elmer Bernstein, and all that. He thought, George couldn't possibly do that.

So, I'm sitting at home one morning. This was a big turning point in my life, it really was. It was about 8:30 in the morning and I get this phone call, and this is how Helfer was (in a very business-like voice), Mr. Roberts, what are you doing right now. I replied, I'm having an unemployed cup of coffee. Helfer said, how long would it take you to get in your car with your bass trombone, your bag of mutes, and everything else that you carry and get down to Radio Recorder's Annex? How long will it take you to get down here? I said, about 40 minutes. Helfer said, get all your stuff, put it in the car and be at Radio Recorder's in 40 minutes. Buzzzzzz. And he hung the phone up. I thought, good Lord. I ran and got my stuff and put it in the car and I was there in 30 minutes!

I walked in the door and there's the LA Philharmonic sitting there. The bass trombonist had gotten up and walked out on Helfer and Igor Stravinsky. This is insanity, you just don't do that! Some of the players convinced Helfer to "try the new kid" (me). Anyway, I was told, get back there, sit down, and play. I went back, looked at what I had to play and I thought, well, all I can do is look at the part and count like heck. I had to play a solo with the harp, which was all the way across the room. I already knew that the sound delay was going to be a son-of-a-gun but Stravinsky began to conduct and we got a little way in and he stopped and said, he (George) is right and you're wrong (harpist) - play with him! We made the date that (snaps fingers) fast.

[bloke]

My observations are that - over the years - euphonium mouthpieces have approached SOME STYLES of bass trombone mouthpieces (ie. have tended to "grow").

The most noted early exceptions being the *Lehman mouthpieces, which were very large before anyone else was using very large 'pieces (and before many other Americans were using British-style euphoniums.

That having been said, I've noticed some bass trombonists (with great success) backing away from the "how big a mouthpiece can I possibly play?" game.

_______________________________
*

In the late 1940s, Lehman worked closely with the British Boosey and Hawkes musical instrument company to produce a set of five custom-made silver-plated "Imperial" model Euphoniums which were used in the Marine Band for over half a century. One of these unique Euphoniums is owned today by one of Lehman's former students, Glenn Call.

Always looking for a darker, more powerful sound, Arthur Lehman also developed the deep, large-bore parabolic-cup mouthpieces generally known today as the "Lehman Special," a radical change from the shallower cup-shaped mouthpieces of earlier Euphonium soloists. With his performances on the Boosey and Hawkes Euphoniums and his "Lehman Special" mouthpieces, Lehman is widely credited for transforming the typical American Euphonium sound from the lighter continental sound of the John Philip Sousa days to the rich, dark and resonant sound common today

[tbonesullivan]

Well, this comes down to "it depends", as with most things. Full disclosure: I'm primarily a trombone player, and play tenor and bass trombone. Most people who play both do not use the same mouthpiece on both instruments, just as most trombonists who play tenor and alto do not play the same mouthpiece on both instruments. There are some that play the same rim size for tenor and alto, but I don't know many that play the same rim size for a bass and a tenor.

And, in many cases, it's not just the rim size, but also the rest of the mouthpiece. In the old days, pretty much the rule was that as the rim got wider, the cup got wider and deeper. Whether that was due to machining limitations or something else, I have no idea. The throat and backbore ALSO got bigger. Bach was really the main player back then. There was of course schilke, but they were much much more of a custom shop, and Bach was probably the first company to really put out an entire line of numbered mouthpieces in the U.S..

Anyhow, people used all different sizes, but eventually in the 60s the 1 1/2G became kind of "the" bass trombone mouthpiece from the Bach line. Many players used it. King trombones even designed their legendary Duo Gravis to use that mouthpiece. Some went even bigger wot the 1 1/4G, and 1G, or the Schilke 61.

These however don't make very good euphonium mouthpieces, IMHO. The cup is just too wide and big, and the throat and backbore is huge. Something like a 4G or 5G is better, or maybe even a 6 1/2AL. I know a VERY good local player who uses a 6 1/2AL with his British Euphonium.

You really need the Cup, throat, and backbore to be of a size and type that works best with the sound concept of that instrument. These days thankfully, they have modular mouthpieces, as well as many customer makers who have learned from the decades of experimentation. You can get a mouthpiece that plays like a 5G, but has a rim size more like a 2 or 1 1/2 G, for those who just have that anatomical requirement.

[bloke]

This might be off topic, or a sidebar...
...but for me (personally), larger mouthpieces work better with my British-style compensating euphonium (Willson, fwiw), whereas my Melton (aka “Meinl-Weston”) rotary Kaiser baritone (longer mouthpipe, same valveset bore, MUCH larger bugle, same bell rim diameter) works much better with 6-1/2AL - 5G size mouthpieces. Anything much larger, and the resonance of the Kaiser baritone “dulls out“.
Anything much smaller than a 5G, though, with my compensating euphonium, and the sound becomes too nasal to sound characteristic.

[marccromme]

I do very well with the smallest of Yamaha bass trombone mouthpieces, the 58L on my Wessex dolce euph. Slots nicely, has a better bite than the usual funnel shaped DW, or the Schilke 51D. I much prefer the Yamaha 58L, which has a cup.

I would never play it on my bass bones, though, its way to small and pinched in sound for that. There I use Yamaha Yeo, or even a Greg Black 1. 1/4, which are considerably larger.

So, shortly, no, euph and bass bone require different mouthpieces to work optimal

[bloke]

A section mate in one of the per-service orchestras with which I work has some mouthpieces that range in size (probably only one of them actually "Schilke" brand) from around a Schilke 58 through a 60.

He picks the mouthpiece based on the lit., and how he wants his instrument to mostly tend to resonate for a particular piece.
Of course, when we're playing schlock, he just pulls out his go-to mouthpiece.

One thing that he stumbled on (that works pretty well, and is not "huge") is a (probably) 1970's-vintage MiraFone mouthpiece that only has "562" stamped on it as the 'model' number. After he found that on eBay - and I took care of minor nicks and re-plated it for him, I contacted Christian (Miraphone). They had ONE on a shelf, collecting dust, and sold it to me for a very reasonable price. It's a useful mouthpiece...just at the very largest of what works with my Kaiser baritone, and in the mid range of what works with my compensating euphonium.

' not much to do with the topic, but... (typical bloke "stream-of-consciousness" typing...)
Why is it that we (as tuba people) tend to automatically like mouthpieces with "European"-style exterior shapes (and probably - ?? - tend to be willing to pay a bit more for them) vs. those featuring generic-American "Bach"-style exterior shapes?

[bone-a-phone]

I'm a tenor bone player, and play Doug Elliot stuff on tenor, 104 F-C on small tenor and 104 G on large tenor (considered big diameter, average cup depth). On bass, I play about 1 1/4G size, which is kind of medium size for bass. On euph, my preferred mouthpiece is 2G. This allows a good low range and a good high range. My large tenor mouthpiece feels small on the euph.

So yes, you can. Maybe I just don't have a very dialed in sense of what a euphonium should sound like. I know Mr. Werden is kind of horrified by playing big mouthpieces in a euphonium. I had a little discussion with him about it, and we just left it at we have very different ideas of what a euphonium does. He's a big time pro, and I'm ... not. So you can pick whose advice you want to take.

What are your goals? What are your abilities? I have a good high range and a not so good low range, so I tend to use large mouthpieces to help me where I need the most help. I can play the biggest mouthpieces I have on euph (Yamaha 60), and I don't think they make it sound bad, although they make anything over high Bb harder to play, and allow me to go to pedal C without much problem. With the same mouthpiece I can play lower on euph than I can on bass bone.

[bloke]

Since you mentioned "Elliott"...
...and I've mentioned this in the past...and most people have read it , but...

I use an Elliott CONTRABASS trombone mouthpiece with my compensating euphonium (SPECIFICALLY when I'm using that instrument to cover bass trombone parts (mixed into my stack of tuba parts) at church gigs, OR when playing "bass trombone" brass quintets.
That mouthpiece is not the typical "bari-tuba" horrible p.o.s.
- It plays in-tune just as well as any euphonium mouthpiece.
- The pitch does NOT sag in the high range (though playing much above B-flat (an octave above the bass clef staff) is a good bit of work.
- It morphs the "euphonium" resonance to a "little tuba" resonance, thus supplying the brass quintet (etc.) with a "BASS" instrument, YET one that can play comfortably a few steps higher than the typical F tuba range, AND can play comfortably (with a loud and FULL sound) down to (let's say) 3rd-ledger "G" (BELOW the bass clef staff).

LOL...Just as "euphonium players" are not, I'm not asked to play many straight-ahead "euphonium gigs"...but I do have a small collection of (normal/acceptable) "euphonium" mouthpieces.

I'm a tenor bone player, and play Doug Elliot stuff on tenor, 104 F-C on small tenor and 104 G on large tenor (considered big diameter, average cup depth). On bass, I play about 1 1/4G size, which is kind of medium size for bass. On euph, my preferred mouthpiece is 2G. This allows a good low range and a good high range. My large tenor mouthpiece feels small on the euph.

So yes, you can. Maybe I just don't have a very dialed in sense of what a euphonium should sound like. I know Mr. Werden is kind of horrified by playing big mouthpieces in a euphonium. I had a little discussion with him about it, and we just left it at we have very different ideas of what a euphonium does. He's a big time pro, and I'm ... not. So you can pick whose advice you want to take.

What are your goals? What are your abilities? I have a good high range and a not so good low range, so I tend to use large mouthpieces to help me where I need the most help. I can play the biggest mouthpieces I have on euph (Yamaha 60), and I don't think they make it sound bad, although they make anything over high Bb harder to play, and allow me to go to pedal C without much problem. With the same mouthpiece I can play lower on euph than I can on bass bone.