POLL: shorty/fatty (York-like) Holton B-flat tuba with 19-inch bell...

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shorty/fatty Holton B-flat 5th valve

nope
10
16%
yep
34
56%
maybe later
17
28%
 
Total votes: 61

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bloke
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Re: POLL: shorty/fatty (York-like) Holton B-flat tuba with 19-inch bell...

Post by bloke »

hrender wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:41 am That is going to be a great horn when it is done.


Yes...I strongly suspect it will...and thanks...
...but I'm only putting things back the way they were (as best I can) when first fabricated, and sticking stuff back together "backwards".

(I finally got the angle of the bottom bow - in my 2D pictures - to not appear "cockeyed", but fingerprints continue to make it appear to be poorly-repaired - though not).

When I first pulled it out of the box (horribly beat-up / 3-valves/ top-action), it sounded great, offered reliable intonation, slurred easily, and did not require any special care to play 5th/6th partial pitches (without faulty attacks).

The "secret" of my successful "projects" is that I start with stuff that (is obvious) is going to work. 😉

Can I straighten out brass and stick it together nicely ?
yes.
Did I design this bugle and build it from scratch ?
nope.
Do I have a sneaking suspicion that much of the tooling for the final-days-of-Holton "Harvey Phillips" model was THIS stuff (pulled down from a dusty shelf) ?
yes.
Do I more enjoy building these "projects", or playing these projects ?
The entire time I'm building them, I'm bored, because (feeling as though I'm frozen in time, as they very slowly progress) I already know everything I'm going to do, and I'm ONLY thinking about being able to PLAY them.


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Re: POLL: shorty/fatty (York-like) Holton B-flat tuba with 19-inch bell...

Post by bloke »

I've gotten to the point where I have to "$h!t, or get off the pot"...

...because I'm going to begin to be COVERING UP solder joints with bows, and - finishing up those solder joints (with other bows in the way) would be very difficult and/or messy and/or very slow.

Mrs. bloke took pictures and offered feedback on the clocking of the bell engraving, and we agreed that it needed to be clocked towards the body a few degrees...so - since the bell was only "tacked", I loosened the (actually: exquisitely nice-fitting...thanks to the brace gods) big upper-bow-to-bell-brace (a King brace, I'm thinking...) heated the two areas that were tacked on the small end of the bell ferrule, and - while the solder was molten - clocked the bell so-as the upper brace contacted an area c. 3/8" to 1/2" further around.

I'm satisfied with the centering of the engraving, and - even though the valveset (as actually having the valveset in place would assist in this) is "imaginary", it's probably going to be either "good", "perfect", or (at worst) "better than some".

I don't know if I'll get any more body bows mounted today, but the bows that you've seen will be "hardened" in place - with their solder joints cleaned up.

Here's a picture:

Image
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Re: POLL: shorty/fatty (York-like) Holton B-flat tuba with 19-inch bell...

Post by bloke »

OK...

All of these solder joints are "hardened and cleaned".

If I find that any of this has to come back apart, I'll be saying some stuff that I'm not supposed to say...

...and - now that there's a defined outside shape, I can see that the case's generously-sized mouthpiece box is going to need to disappear...

...The super-tall upper bow is articulating with it, and the huge 19" bell (which barely fits in this case) cannot be scooched up to the large end of the case far enough for the case to close.

You might also notice that (as posted previously) the rotation of the engraving has changed.

Covid the cat...
I'm not trying to mimic Wade. Anyone who has cats knows that this is what cats do (the very same as with 3-year-old children).

I probably will not revisit this until Sunday.
I have to leave at 10 A.M. in the morning...get a haircut, buy some car parts, get on the road, check into a hotel, sit through two out-of-town rehearsals (plus mini-rehearsal of low-brass xmas carols), an overnight hotel stay, and... (Saturday) a matinee, and an evening show (Santa, and all that...) I'll be back at blokeplace by 11 P.M. Saturday night, will probably sleep until 7 or so, piddle around, and see about this thing - again - by late morning.

I'd REALLY like to be ready for the valveset (though the valveset is not ready for it) by Monday. :bugeyes:
I'm suspecting that the instrument might (??) be above pitch. If not, that will be a pleasant surprise.

Hey...Mrs. bloke LIKES the looks of this thing...so I'm "good".

Image
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Re: POLL: shorty/fatty (York-like) Holton B-flat tuba with 19-inch bell...

Post by Yorkboy »

bloke wrote:I'm suspecting that the instrument might (??) be above pitch. If not, that will be a pleasant surprise.
I'll wager a steak dinner it will be.....in my (limited) experience, a top-to-side action BBb conversion usually loses about 7" or so, depending on how long the "2nd dogleg" (the smaller one that spans between the MTS and the 3rd valve) is.

(The steak dinner is a bet I wouldn't mind losing to you anyway :tuba: )
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Re: POLL: shorty/fatty (York-like) Holton B-flat tuba with 19-inch bell...

Post by bloke »

Yorkboy wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 6:11 pm
bloke wrote:I'm suspecting that the instrument might (??) be above pitch. If not, that will be a pleasant surprise.
I'll wager a steak dinner it will be.....in my (limited) experience, a top-to-side action BBb conversion usually loses about 7" or so, depending on how long the "2nd dogleg" (the smaller one that spans between the MTS and the 3rd valve) is.

(The steak dinner is a bet I wouldn't mind losing to you anyway :tuba: )
yeah...There's a chunk of crap - to be discarded (the one you accurately describe) - for which there is no comparable piece.

Maybe, I'll just "blow slow air". :red:

Another tack would be to put an upward-oriented main slide in the mouthpipe tube (opposite the missed-opportunity one stuck the old Hirsbrunner HB2P - which was little more than a piston valveset pasted on to a rotary-ready bugle), solid-solder the other main slide bow (lower) in place, and use that upper main slide for anything that's just a bit "out"...

...borrowing YOUR OWN picture:

Image
' might even be able to snake such a rig around to the back...for "secret tuning". :bugeyes:
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MN_TimTuba (Mon Nov 29, 2021 8:43 pm)
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Re: POLL: shorty/fatty (York-like) Holton B-flat tuba with 19-inch bell...

Post by LargeTuba »

I never understood why tubas with main tuning slides before the valves don't just do a flip... It would be a slide pullers dream!
Maybe aesthetic?
I guess we couldn't have an American Orchestral tuba not look yorkish, could we? :eyes:
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bloke (Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:10 pm)
Pt-6P, Holton 345 CC, 45slp
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Re: POLL: shorty/fatty (York-like) Holton B-flat tuba with 19-inch bell...

Post by bloke »

OK...
The mouthpiece box and another stiff/bell-restrictive pad have been removed, and it ~just~ fits.

I could additionally thin-out the 2" thick bell-end pads (upper and lower) to 1" or 1/2", and it would slide even farther towards the large end and close even easier...but - at least - it now closes with the tuba (front-action oriented outside body shape) in it. I analyzed the remaining small amount of resistance when closing the case. It only consists of the huge/thick pad - under the long part of the bell - being compressed about 3/4 of an inch.

I put the tuba-in-the-case, the valveset, the fifth valve stuff, and the other bows on top of the case (on my old counterweight bath scale) and the tuba-in-the-case only comes out to about 44 lbs (this completed tuba in this case).

Compared to a 23 lb. 5/4 C tuba in an 8 lb. bag (31 lbs. total), that's not all that much more weight, and it's far more protective...

...so I won't be shopping for any bag for this tuba.

Image
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Re: POLL: shorty/fatty (York-like) Holton B-flat tuba with 19-inch bell...

Post by bloke »

> back from the out-of-town xmas shows...
> recovered from getting home at 11, and staying up until midnight...
> shop is warmed up
> I'm heading back out, to see how many more bugle-bows I can get stuck on this thing, today...

The smaller they are, the faster they go (let's hope...)

non sequitur:
Not counting our low-brass loading dock Cuban cigars' smoke ...and "Heineken-breath", there was a friggin' SMOKE MACHINE going (just behind the rear "leg" curtain) for the ENTIRE concert, last night...so wtf was that all about? Oh yeah, and - at the end - fake snow was dropped on some $ZX,XXX cellos...whatev'...No one complained...
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Re: POLL: shorty/fatty (York-like) Holton B-flat tuba with 19-inch bell...

Post by bloke »

I only mounted one additional bow today, but it's time to determine where I'm going with all of this, so I'm now laying things together (including the not-pictured valveset), to explore possibilities.

This seems somewhat viable...

Please ignore the 5th circuit completely, as it will be NOTHING like this, and (simply) this is the original circuit that was attached to this salvaged 3/4" bore rotor:
...and the mouthpipe tube will need to be trimmed (if not completely remade from scratch...

...and thanks to Yorkboy for some tips...The small upper 5th branch bow - at least, for now - IS a KING (not Holton) bow, and DOES add length.
I'm feeling more like going with the FF semitone 5th valve circuit. Being short (in addition to original reasons), it's going to make it easier to fit it in wherever I decide to stick it.

Image

...but hiding the 5th circuit in the somewhat-generous space between the bell and the inner bows seems a bit intriguing (though unlikely).
Image

...and even though they were crappy, and looked improvised, I'll probably put a vintage o.e.m. Holton water key on this (or "the") tuning slide.
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Re: POLL: shorty/fatty (York-like) Holton B-flat tuba with 19-inch bell...

Post by bloke »

I forgot to check out the four circuit lengths' viabilities (my computer does not recognize the plural form of "viability") prior to removing the valveset from its original host two-piece 2341...

...but there's another 2341 here, so I just finished playing that tuba and taking notes:

Based on my findings on the intact instrument, I will likely shorten (prior to the installation of the valveset) the #1 and #3 circuits. Possibly, I will shorten #2. Though I'm completely reconfiguring it (so I suppose this is moot) the #4 circuit's length was satisfactory.

careful build? YES

needing to complete this, and to get back to "work"? YES, AGAIN

It is more efficient to have all the circuits be their desired length prior to installation of a valveset? WHY...YES...YET AGAIN !

...so I’m to this point:
- All body bows (and the dogleg) are now dent-free and lacquer-free, but the smallest of them are not yet mounted.
- I’m moving my focus - for a bit - to the valve section to remove all dents, get all circuits to their desired lengths, get the #4 circuit to the desired wrap, and precision-align all slides… as well as cleaning up the surfaces.

I really need to not d—k around, and either complete (or shelve) this project. Per usual, we have NOT received any “free money”, though (duh) our income (just as with millions of other business owners) is under assault...so (VERY soon) I must move back to income-producing enterprises.
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Re: POLL: shorty/fatty (York-like) Holton B-flat tuba with 19-inch bell...

Post by bloke »

OK...
I've started on the valveset...
LOTS of crook dents...LOTS of tubing dents...LOTS of valve block knuckle dents (even BETWEEN the valve casings).
This #1 circuit measured out at c. 30" (all the way in) which is about 3-1/2" too long...so I took the two slides (4-1/2" total) off the bottom to allow for roughly a 1/2" pull for "in tune".
(I also tested an identical valveset on an intact 2341 here, and - yep...FLAT.
This assembly is within .001" of dialed in (alignment), all around.
The lower left side of that long outside slide tube extends down just a bit lower than the ferrule (right side), but the alignment (when I put it on to test it) was SO good, that I just couldn't make myself pull it back off - only to barely trim a tube "for looks".
Sometimes, alignment THAT good is very difficult to "recapture" on a second/third/fourth try.
The tubes don't pull very easily, because they were built snug...
I'll probably work these pairs of tubes in with pumice...but I don't think I'll be doing all that much slide-pumping, when actually playing the completed intrument.

In short...This was a bunch of intense work...but I blew threw it in a couple of hours.

Image

Since I'm about the valveset, for now...
Here's something else:
The Reynolds top caps are quite low-profile, so I'm going to be able to chop a bunch of length off the valve stems...and that's sorta cool.
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Re: POLL: shorty/fatty (York-like) Holton B-flat tuba with 19-inch bell...

Post by Yorkboy »

Nice work, bloke!

I like those buttons - what are they from?
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Re: POLL: shorty/fatty (York-like) Holton B-flat tuba with 19-inch bell...

Post by bloke »

Yorkboy wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 7:17 pm Nice work, bloke!

I like those buttons - what are they from?
a well-made Chinese 19mm bore valve block…but I swapped them out for German buttons before selling the block...I figured I could use the leftover buttons on this thing.
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Re: POLL: shorty/fatty (York-like) Holton B-flat tuba with 19-inch bell...

Post by bloke »

OK...
The #3 circuit is now done...
- dent-free
- aligned
- shortened

Just as with the #2 circuit the upper slide tubing fit is snug, and I'll address that later.

Again, I tested the tuning of this circuit with an intact old-style 2341 (identical valveset) and (again)...FLAT...so now: it's about 3 inches shorter.

The #2 circuit is also flat, but (as with the #1 and #3) my strategy is to AVOID complete disassembly (again: I NEED to get this thing DONE and get back to earning a living...) My strategy with #2 (believe it or not) will be to use a coarse RASP, and RASP the haail out of the ends of the outside slide tubes (until I've removed about 3/8" from each side, simultaneously...down to the top ends of the pair of braces that support them), and then carefully go back and file both ends (fine-toothed file) until both ends are perfectly perpendicular and coplanar.
If that isn't enough to do the trick (ie. isn't enough shorter, based on future 2341 testing), I'll additionally disassemble/un-solder the (moveable/inside) slide and see about shortening the slide bow and ferrules.
That having been said, the #2 (though FLAT) is not going to need much shortening.

The #4 length was actually "on the nose" (F slightly sharp, and C slightly flat) pushed all the way in...but that circuit has been completely disassembled and will be nearly complete rerouted (other than the lower outside slide tube - which exits the #4 casing). I have not decided whether to rebuild the #4 circuit OFF the instrument or ON the instrument (but probably OFF).

Here's the ready-to-go (shortened and knuckle/crook/tubing dents removed) #3 circuit...

Image
Image
Image

> Now...It's time to (rather than move on to #2 or build #4) make sure that I can get both the upper #1 and upper #3 slides to "float".

> As the predicted high temp in Yazoo City for tomorrow is 74 degrees, I hope to see one of Wade's threads bumped back to the top...
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Re: POLL: shorty/fatty (York-like) Holton B-flat tuba with 19-inch bell...

Post by bloke »

I only could devote a half hour to this, this morning...

(car repairs, small engine repairs, firewood under cover before weekend rain, inspect/sort JP instruments for school deliveries, inventory mouthpiece components/fill mouthpiece components backorders, upload to tubaforum :laugh: ...etc., etc...)

...but I DID get the #1 slide dialed in, so that's good.

(moves with ease, but does not rely on loose fit)
...so go ahead and post your wisecracks... :eyes:

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Re: POLL: shorty/fatty (York-like) Holton B-flat tuba with 19-inch bell...

Post by Three Valves »

bloke wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:39 am
(moves with ease, but does not rely on loose fit)
Thant's what she said!!

I'm here to serve. :teeth:
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Re: POLL: shorty/fatty (York-like) Holton B-flat tuba with 19-inch bell...

Post by Doc »

Three Valves wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:59 am
bloke wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:39 am
(moves with ease, but does not rely on loose fit)
Thant's what she said!!

I'm here to serve. :teeth:
Thank you for your service!
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Re: POLL: shorty/fatty (York-like) Holton B-flat tuba with 19-inch bell...

Post by Three Valves »

Service, volley, whatever... :woot!
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Re: POLL: shorty/fatty (York-like) Holton B-flat tuba with 19-inch bell...

Post by bloke »

In-between...

that Elkhart 88H trombone gig, smoking some pig meat (checking the fire every 20 minutes, because I don't have one of those $5000 computerized smokers), re-lacquering a tenor sax bell (a bell that - unlike Selmers and the nicer copies of Selmers - does NOT unbolt from the stack, and that the lacquer would neither strip off with lacquer stripper nor via a lye-based solution, so I had to BUFF the lacquer off the bell's interior/exterior...and around tone holes and posts...and the same with the neck... :eyes: :smilie6: ...

...I got this valveset's #3 slide working as well as the #1 slide (ref: #1 slide video)...the same sort of lapping, final dialing in, etc.
As the upper #3 slide has a round fairly narrow bow, I was able to use a patented blokeTrik® to dial in the slide width to the very last thousandth of an inch (without using heat).

I guess, after I manage to remove (not much, but needed) about 3/4 inch off the overall length of the #2 circuit, I'll be ready to either mount this (and build the #4 circuit on the instrument) or build the #4 circuit (OFF the instrument).

bloke "This is getting tedious, just as with past 'builds'."
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Re: POLL: shorty/fatty (York-like) Holton B-flat tuba with 19-inch bell...

Post by Yorkboy »

bloke wrote:As the upper #3 slide has a round fairly narrow bow, I was able to use a patented blokeTrik® to dial in the slide width to the very last thousandth of an inch (without using heat).
Gotta ask........ :bow2:
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