Doubler Tuba

[Bassboner]

Ok, so for all you friendly folks, what's a good tbone doubler tuba, accessible by eBay in the sub $2k area? Preferably BBb. Don't care pistons or rotors, prefer low valves over valves up high. Don't really care about how much lacquer if any. Don't want anything huge. Not big on Yamaha, just want something to play quartet or quintet, or maybe church band with a decent sound and manageable intonation.

[gocsick]

My recommendation would be an Olds 99-4/Bach Mercedes, or a Conn 4J. Perfectly priced in your budget.. great playing tuba.. Four valve front action . ..smaller than full size but bigger than 3/4...

The Conn 5J is the "Updated", in 1986.. These tend to go for a little more... and if you look around on the forum you will see they are not as highly regarded as the Olds or Conn-4J.. but I still like them.

I keep low-key looking for one for myself (not that I need it).. but when I have money none are available and when they are plentiful I am broke.

[Bassboner]

Thanks. There are a coiple cheap parts O99s, but they are 3v. An old Mirafone looks interesting. We just have a big shortage of tuba players and a glut of trombones, so it might be time to jump.

[aarongsmith]

@arpthark has an Olds 0-99 that would be a good fit and it looks to be nice especially for the price he has it at.
I would say if you NEED a fourth valve, the easiest path of least resistance is to have someone add a rotor that operated by the thumb. I've seen it done on some sousaphones and it's a cool way to make a horn more functional.

Depending on where you are at, I have a decent, but ugly older 186 BBb at work that would fit the budget. Shipping could expensive though. If you are interested shoot me an email over to my work email: aaron.smith at chucklevins.com

[Bassboner]

@arpthark has an Olds 0-99 that would be a good fit and it looks to be nice especially for the price he has it at.
I would say if you NEED a fourth valve, the easiest path of least resistance is to have someone add a rotor that operated by the thumb. I've seen it done on some sousaphones and it's a cool way to make a horn more functional.

Depending on where you are at, I have a decent, but ugly older 186 BBb at work that would fit the budget. Shipping could expensive though. If you are interested shoot me an email over to my work email: aaron.smith at chucklevins.com

Wow, thanks. That O99 looks fine, and the price is right for sure. What would I ever use a 4th valve for on a BBb? I'm in Virginia, albeit western VA. If it weren't for that Olds, I'd probably be interested in a 186.

And just out of a combination of curiosity and ignorance, I've got a Helleberg 120, but is there something that might fit the Olds better?

[bloke]

@arpthark

Sell this person your O-99.

[gocsick]

Wow, thanks. That O99 looks fine, and the price is right for sure. What would I ever use a 4th valve for on a BBb? I'm in Virginia, albeit western VA. If it weren't for that Olds, I'd probably be interested in a 186.

And just out of a combination of curiosity and ignorance, I've got a Helleberg 120, but is there something that might fit the Olds better?

Honestly, for BBb and amateur playing, a good 3 valve is more than enough. I am sure you know but 4th valve is equivalent to F trigger on a trombone.. except on tuba pressing 1+3 isn't as cumbersome as shooting out to 6th position for C or Low F.

99% of band music didn't go below the F 4th line below the staff. If you need to need to get down there occasionally you have false tones.. which a very easy on tuba compared to trombone. Honestly I do almost all my gigging on 3 valve instruments.. Sousaphone and a big Conn 20J.. about 50 last year with the charity band I'm in.

In terms of mouthpieces.. nothing wrong with a Helleberg. You might want to try a Bach 18 as well. Then are the de facto popular tuba mouthpieces.. kind of like a 1 1/4G for bass trombone.

[aarongsmith]

Wow, thanks. That O99 looks fine, and the price is right for sure. What would I ever use a 4th valve for on a BBb? I'm in Virginia, albeit western VA. If it weren't for that Olds, I'd probably be interested in a 186.

And just out of a combination of curiosity and ignorance, I've got a Helleberg 120, but is there something that might fit the Olds better?

Honestly, for BBb and amateur playing, a good 3 valve is more than enough. I am sure you know but 4th valve is equivalent to F trigger on a trombone.. except on tuba pressing 1+3 isn't as cumbersome as shooting out to 6th position for C or Low F.

99% of band music didn't go below the F 4th line below the staff. If you need to need to get down there occasionally you have false tones.. which a very easy on tuba compared to trombone. Honestly I do almost all my gigging on 3 valve instruments.. Sousaphone and a big Conn 20J.. about 50 last year with the charity band I'm in.

In terms of mouthpieces.. nothing wrong with a Helleberg. You might want to try a Bach 18 as well. Then are the de facto popular tuba mouthpieces.. kind of like a 1 1/4G for bass trombone.

What he said, except I don't like the rim on Bach mouthpieces. I personally like the 120S A LOT more than most de facto tuba mouthpieces, but that's all opinion and personal bias.

That model and the Conn branded ones are great. They put out the right sound for chamber music, pit work, and certainly jazz settings. They can even be convincing in a section in concert band as well.

You should also have a top third valve tuning slide that, with a little care and good alignment, should be able to help bring down 1-3 and 1-2-3 combinations. Otherwise, those pitches on those horns are pretty easy to "lip" around.

Like I said, at that price you can have someone get creative and add a valve. However, you certainly do not need the fourth valve.
I like the idea of a thumb rotor, especially for trombonists that are doubling since they can think of it as sort of F-attachment except on the opposite hand. Plus, you can do that with a more solid connection that grafting a fourth piston on and the parts are a little easier to come by.

[bloke]

I misinterpret stuff fairly often, but to me the term "doubler" isn't paired up with the term, "amateur", particularly often.

I tend to suspect that this person is looking for an instrument that they can play well enough so as the guy who booked him would consider hiring him back another time.

[Bassboner]

I misinterpret stuff fairly often, but to me the term "doubler" isn't paired up with the term, "amateur", particularly often.

I tend to suspect that this person is looking for an instrument that they can play well enough so as the guy who booked him would consider hiring him back another time.

Yeah, I'm a former pro bone player with at least the potential to be a decent tuber or whatever y'all call yerselves. I've got that bass-line groove going in my head most of the time. I might turn out to be a decent dixie band tuber. Bass bone is a pretty awkward instrument, it doesn't have the lyric capabilities of tenor or the presence of tuba.

[bloke]

I misinterpret stuff fairly often, but to me the term "doubler" isn't paired up with the term, "amateur", particularly often.

I tend to suspect that this person is looking for an instrument that they can play well enough so as the guy who booked him would consider hiring him back another time.

Yeah, I'm a former pro bone player with at least the potential to be a decent tuber or whatever y'all call yerselves. I've got that bass-line groove going in my head most of the time. I might turn out to be a decent dixie band tuber. Bass bone is a pretty awkward instrument, it doesn't have the lyric capabilities of tenor or the presence of tuba.

Were you to be able to determine whether these valves are any good, once (theoretically) acquired, you would likely choose to have the lower slides of the #1 and #3 circuits shortened (as it's a 1241, and not a 2341).

https://www.ebay.com/itm/257302317546

...or this one - whereby it's a 2341, thus the #1 and #3 circuit are both only barely too long:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/306664715324

[Bassboner]

Were you to be able to determine whether these valves are any good, once (theoretically) acquired, you would likely choose to have the lower slides of the #1 and #3 circuits shortened (as it's a 1241, and not a 2341).

https://www.ebay.com/itm/257302317546

...or this one - whereby it's a 2341, thus the #1 and #3 circuit are both only barely too long:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/306664715324

Hmmm. The horn from @arpthark appears to be low on the abuse scale, so I'm hopeful the valves are pretty decent. I've read the O99 s 1 and 3 are kinda long, and they don't give the appearance of having been cut in the last several years, although who knows. Not sure what you're getting at with the King reference, although I can see a resemblance with the o99. Actually, the simpler, lighter 3v configuration does have its appeal. I do like a simple straight Olds Recording, although Olds bones are not known to be light weight, rather kind of overbuilt. From what I read the o99 is about 18 lbs, which is light enough without being flimsy.

[bloke]

The King is bigger and fatter, taller build shape, and a 1241 4 valve features overly long number one and number three circuits (as with many three valve tubas, even though it's a four valve instrument).

The redesigned 2341 - which was also tall with a detachable bell - features more appropriately lengthed number one and number three circuits.

Basically, the 1241 logic is simply a three valve tuba with compromises and those overly long lengths with a fourth valve stuck on the back end.

The 2341 acknowledges the existence of the fourth valve and adjusts the number one and number three circuits accordingly.
The 2341 instruments were also made later, which offers a chance of less valve wear.

Not to confuse, but later than these two instruments, the 2341 body was redesigned to be much more compact and rather than soaring up over 40 in tall is now only 37 in tall with a non detachable Bell. That newest version of 2341 tends to cost considerably more in the used market than the tall detachable Bell version, but really doesn't play any better.

[Bassboner]

The King is bigger and fatter, taller ...

Huh. I like the big fat sound, but on some videos, people seem to get this nasty nasal sound. and I'm afraid of being one of those people. I like the look of the non-removable bell 2341w, but I'll bet not even tuba players get by on looks alone.

Anyway, just out of curiosity and because I didn't know better, I came close to pulling the trigger on this ebay horn. I knew I could get by on 3 valves, and was hoping that the reputation of Mirafone might get me by with this one, but would this have been a decent horn for my purposes as well?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/306700704889?_ ... 0KTSJ69VYM

[arpthark]

The King is bigger and fatter, taller ...

Huh. I like the big fat sound, but on some videos, people seem to get this nasty nasal sound. and I'm afraid of being one of those people. I like the look of the non-removable bell 2341w, but I'll bet not even tuba players get by on looks alone.

Anyway, just out of curiosity and because I didn't know better, I came close to pulling the trigger on this ebay horn. I knew I could get by on 3 valves, and was hoping that the reputation of Mirafone might get me by with this one, but would this have been a decent horn for my purposes as well?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/306700704889?_ ... 0KTSJ69VYM

That’s mislabeled. That’s a crappy Soviet proto-St. Petersburg BBb.

[catgrowlB]

Old MW-20 BBb. The bell is kinda ugly -- lots of dent work, patches, lacquer wear/scarring throughout the horn. But otherwise looks good, and should be a solid horn that plays well. I'd probably clean it up a bit then spray it with good metallic spray paint. But thats me. This is Meinl-Westons version of the Miraphone 186. Only the slightly larger MW-25 is still made, I believe. Imo, Meinl-Weston tubas tend to sound more 'velvety' compared to equivalent Miraphones.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/306625356272

Old Conn 10j. While only 3 valves, they play really great in good working order, and can sound larger/fuller than their 7/8 size. The large-ish 18" pancake bell and .695" valveset bore is a large part of that. Great response and intonation.
I'd try to talk the price down a bit for the condition it's in.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/376622625253

[Bassboner]

...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/306700704889?_ ... 0KTSJ69VYM

That’s mislabeled. That’s a crappy Soviet proto-St. Petersburg BBb.

Wow, glad I made the decision that I made.