overcoming yama-yama men

[matt g]

(somehwat off-topic):

I've never understood band directors purchasing Miraphones for schools.

-Tall bells, meaning easy to knock over.
-relatively thin metal, so easy to dent.
-the stupid bell garlands which are a pain to fix and often rattle
-and fiddly rotor linkages which usually need tending to.

All this for a mere $10,000+.

I remember when I was in high school (early 1990s) toting around my personally-owned 186 in a hard case and showing up at various contests, “super ensembles”, or whatever and occasionally seeing other kids with beaten up school-owned 186s.

I would always wonder why the schools would buy these when I knew how poorly the Kings we had were treated (but held up) as opposed to what I knew at the age of 15/16 was a more delicate instrument.

When I went to college, the school had two BBb 186s and the 3/4 BBb Rudolf Meinl. The Mirafones were in good shape and the Rudy was nearly perfect. What a difference that filter makes in terms of responsibility.

Even the (mediocre Yamaha) sousaphones lasted pretty well at the collegiate level and they were seeing more use than high school.

On topic:

Given how manufacturing is sorting out, where should schools be looking to buy low brass from? Are the current USA domestic brands (really singular I guess) competitive in price and quality?

I don't know - I think a lot depends on the director, the culture of the program and the area. My HS had 4/4 Rudy Meinls. This was an amazing music program ranked tops in the state for 25 years. When I was a junior I walked in the band room for rehearsal early in the year and was handed a brand new Rudy right out of its wooden shipping crate. Those Rudys still looked great and played well 40 years later because kids were schooled in how to take care of them, were expected to take care of them, held to that and made to understand how lucky they were to be able to have a chance to play such a horn. We had 4 Rudys and the rest were Conn 25J's that the band had for years and were in great shape as well - even the Conn 36K sousaphones lasted for decades. It didn't hurt that the orchestra director was a fine tuba player and the jazz band director was a former professional jazz tuba player. A trombone player Bloke mentions from time to time that he currently plays with was in my band. The schools around where I live now all play the big 5/4 Miraphones and those programs take great care of them. These are big schools in the 3500-5500 student range. So quality instruments can survive even today. It just takes effort and education.

If you’re in a situation where the band director instills this level of responsibility in students and respects the taxpayers’ dollars as well, then I have no doubt this can happen.

In Florida, there used to be (and still is to a degree) of shuffling around of band directors such that these legacies may or may not happen.

[the elephant]

"Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM."

[tbonesullivan]

Did someone say Yamaha?

I hate to admit it, but I'm a Yamaha brass addict. They make good stuff. However they aren't the end all be all, and it seems like a lot of their best stuff no longer gets made.

[jtm]

The really early 321 instruments featured very long #3 slides…
...more like 6 or 7 inches, instead of three or so.

NOT on-the-fly, but this made them capable of playing most of the really low chromatic pitches.

This is nifty, but seems on the same order of usefulness as sticking rolled up paper in a bassoon bell to play the low A.

[bloke]

The really early 321 instruments featured very long #3 slides…
...more like 6 or 7 inches, instead of three or so.

NOT on-the-fly, but this made them capable of playing most of the really low chromatic pitches.

This is nifty, but seems on the same order of usefulness as sticking rolled up paper in a bassoon bell to play the low A.

yes.
I view the (other than with English-style baritones) abandoned-by-manufacturers 3-valve compensating system (when an instrument is top-action) as being considerably more useful than a 4-valve non-compensating system.

[WC8KCY]

I have a love/hate relationship with Yamaha.

Out of the many Yamaha tubas I've gotten to play over the years, only a single '70s vintage YBB-201 has stood out to me as a fine player. However, in high school I played a school-owned 321 of similar vintage and while it played better-than-OK when in good repair, it was the most shoddily-made brass instrument I've ever encountered. Every year, solder joints would fail, things would fall apart, and leaks would develop. That poor tuba, which was handled with reasonable care and not all dented up, was pockmarked everywhere with burnt lacquer and tarnished bare brass from all the resoldering work done on it.

Moving ahead to 1994, I found myself in need of a euphonium. I wanted a Conn 19I, but none of the dealers I inquired with could get one. One dealer did have a Yamaha 321S euph, and after test-playing it I "settled" for that...with the memory of the horrible build quality of my school's YBB-321 weighing heavily on my mind as I signed the purchase order. It wasn't long before I had problems with sticking valves, pearl inserts falling out of the valve buttons, and a loose main tuning slide that fell out during a performance.

Yamaha replaced that instrument with another 321S that has been truly exceptional to play and absolutely problem-free. All has been forgiven.

And, my favorite B-flat clarinet is a Yamaha YCL-20. Mike Lutley, former quality control specialist for Yamaha woodwinds back when their USA HQ was in Grand Rapids, Michigan, went through it and when he was done with his careful fine tuning, it turned out to be the best clarinet I've ever played.

It's so maddening. The same outfit that produced two wonderful instruments that I am absolutely thrilled to own and play just can't seem to build tubas that come close to that same standard of excellence. The goodness of my Yamaha euphonium and clarinet has convinced me beyond any doubt that they could do it...but they don't...or won't.

And another thing: It didn't take Yamaha very long to realize they could build better soprano clarinets with their own original designs versus just making improved copies of Buffets and Selmers. Why are they, decades later, still just farting around building tubas that are mediocre copies of other builders' designs?

[bloke]

There is a way that manufacturers chemically/electrically remove most of the excess solder on solder joints.

Depending on whether a manufacturer uses this process (I know that the long-shuttered Blessing - USA factory used it, and - I suspect - most did-and-do use it), and how much and how strong they use it, solder joints tend to (via this process) become like Swiss cheese, and are considerably weakened.

It's appearance (and quickness of of achieving appearance) over strength. Solder joints are already mere lead and tin (with mostly women being hired to do soldering - because they tend to do neater work - and being told to only barely use enough heat and barely use enough solder - so that the follow-up electro-chemical process nearly completely cleans the solder joints...in order to make the buff jobs as quick as possible, because the polishing people are the highest-paid people in any factory). Solder joints really need to be as strong as they can be (vs. as "pretty" as they can be).

[matt g]

And another thing: It didn't take Yamaha very long to realize they could build better soprano clarinets with their own original designs versus just making improved copies of Buffets and Selmers. Why are they, decades later, still just farting around building tubas that are mediocre copies of other builders' designs?

In their defense, the biggest moneymaker design in the tuba world is a 100 year old design out of Grand Rapids.

The European manufacturers were more interesting in the 1990s with trying new designs. That’s also when the YCB and YFB 822s came around. The F tuba seems to have a decent reputation, but the CC has had a more lukewarm response. Both of them are adaptations from older designs as well.

[bloke]

That just-previous-post-mentioned model of F tuba (as well as many others I've tried...and I continue to try most all new models - always looking for something that's actually better...) presents me with a tremendous amount of (distracting-from-the-main-thing) work, in regards to keeping the intonation between the ditches.

I, too, remember when Yamaha (over four decades ago) was bought due to price, rather than due to hype...along with the motorcycle wisecracks.

I'd be interested in a plays-like/built-as-well-as-Miraphone-98 B-flat tuba that (yeah...is priced around $6K or lower).

bloke "still remaining convinced - though the Miraphone 98 is one of the best-playing models of tubas in existence - that 'B-flat' + 'funny-lookin' have cut into it's popularity"

[LargeTuba]

but the CC has had a more lukewarm response.

I thought the mystical Yama-York was some sort of magical copy?

[matt g]

but the CC has had a more lukewarm response.

I thought the mystical Yama-York was some sort of magical copy?

That’s the YCB-826S. There are two other Yamaha “Custom Series” (8xx) model CC tubas. The 822(S) and the 861. The 822 looks a lot like the current 4/4 York-Style tubas like the Eastman 632 and 832. The 861 looks a lot like an Alexander 163 with a Rudolf Meinl fifth valve wrap.

From what little is out there, the 861 is a pretty good tuba. I think Matt Walters owned one for a while. That says it’s a pretty decent horn overall to me. I’ve never played one, and I’m not sure if they are still made. Bad timing for the market, I think.

The 822 has a nice sound, but I think it’s bore is too large at 0.768”. The one I owned had basically the same timbre regardless of mouthpiece and where the throttle is at. That’s cool for some things, but it makes the horn a bit less versatile. Playing response seemed to be slow. Intonation was interesting. It was my first CC tuba, and it was something like the seventh one Yamaha made. Not only was I learning a new set of fingerings, but I needed to track alternates as well. The tuba I had prior to that was a 186 BBb. I traded the Yamaha for a 188 and was much happier.

There’s also the YCB-621 that’s an interesting offering. Yamaha had a lead in that space (3/4 piston CC tubas) for quite a while.

The best (imo) CC that Yamaha made, and if you poke around on the internet looking for information you’ll find a lot of agreement, is the YCB-661. Great sound, compact, easy to play. I think intonation was manageable. I sat with one for about an hour up at Rayburn Music about 20 years back and thought it was great, albeit ridiculously overpriced for a used horn. If they still have the tooling for that horn, they should sell it off to Jinbao or whoever and let them make the thing for the various importers.

[Doc]

That just-previous-post-mentioned model of F tuba (as well as many others I've tried...and I continue to try most all new models - always looking for something that's actually better...) presents me with a tremendous amount of (distracting-from-the-main-thing) work, in regards to keeping the intonation between the ditches.

I've played some F tubas that play very easily, but they always seem to lack in the areas of sound, intonation, or both. If I could find an F that played like a 2250, had the sweet, dark sound of a goldbrass Symphonie, and had the intonation of a Firebird, that would be quite a special unicorn.

bloke "still remaining convinced - though the Miraphone 98 is one of the best-playing models of tubas in existence - that 'B-flat' + 'funny-lookin' have cut into it's popularity"

^^^TRUTH^^^

[tubanews]

Its this sort of high school induced bait of horn discussion that keeps tuba forums alive and well and I welcome it!

But its also sort of dumb and demeaning to people who have actually spent years of their lives in practice rooms for 4-8 hours a day.

The horns that sound good are well known to the people that blow into them for $$$ and their customers.

But theres nothing wrong with hobbies either. Or learning.

[bort2.0]

That just-previous-post-mentioned model of F tuba (as well as many others I've tried...and I continue to try most all new models - always looking for something that's actually better...) presents me with a tremendous amount of (distracting-from-the-main-thing) work, in regards to keeping the intonation between the ditches.

I, too, remember when Yamaha (over four decades ago) was bought due to price, rather than due to hype...along with the motorcycle wisecracks.

I'd be interested in a plays-like/built-as-well-as-Miraphone-98 B-flat tuba that (yeah...is priced around $6K or lower).

bloke "still remaining convinced - though the Miraphone 98 is one of the best-playing models of tubas in existence - that 'B-flat' + 'funny-lookin' have cut into it's popularity"

Buy the 98, Joe... Because you're not getting younger, and you'll want to have it all slicked out and improved somehow by the time the world reopens.

Or basically, if not now, then when?

(Yeah yeah, I know your reasons to not buy it!)

[bloke]

‘ tell you what, bort2.0,

I’m getting ready to finally do some work on a gently worn (actually: not even worn) Nirschl-valveset Hb euphonium. I’m pretty sure that the bugle taper is the same as Adams, though no one will confirm that. Just for good measure - and to give it a sparkly appearance - it’s going to receive another coat of silver plating, once I’m done working with it
Buy that - AND buy my kaiser Miraphone BBb w/case (as delivered from the factory) - for my asking prices, and (though I may not keep it all that long, because you know the rule) I’ll go buy a 98 that I know is for sale.