What makes the sound?

[bloke]

Someone here recently posted a picture of a mouthpiece which features a camera fed into it and it's capable of taking videos of vibrating lips when playing a brass instrument.

As I've tried to explain that (certainly not in the way that I believe) brass instrument lips don't hit against each other in the vibrating portion (at least not when actually playing an instrument and doing so properly) but vibrate independently in unison - as with a bassoon or oboe double reed. There are people subscribed here and across the world who believe otherwise. I'm not responsible for what other people believe, but can only be responsible for my own beliefs.

I've pointed out that - when playing in the LOW range - it is much easier (when there is a way to make a video of it from inside a mouthpiece) to see that the lips don't hit - as the teeth are so far apart and a typical player's embouchure pivot is more vertical, as compared to in the high range - certainly when using these camera mouthpieces (whereby the cameras themselves are incapable of repositioning - as the lips reposition during typical playing in different ranges - as well as being possibly not being completely capable of instantly re-focusing as an embouchure pivot changes) the arch-shaped opening becomes very tiny and hard to discern (as well as the upper lip overlapping the bottom lip, which hides the tiny opening from the view of the stationary camera).

I finally saw a demo with one of these specific cameras in use whereby a trombonist (rather than producing a single frequency) started in the very low range, went way up into the high range, and then went all the way back down.
In the lower range, it was quite easy to tell that the lips were arched - as a bassoon reed - and vibrating independently, but (just as described above) as the player's lips pivoted (following the movement of the teeth) and the opening became tiny for the very high range, all the camera could see was the two lips overlapped for the pivot (hiding the opening), whereby it appeared that the lips were closed but - keeping track of the parts of the lips from the early part of the video (when the low range was being produced), it then became apparent that (with apologies for redundancy) a natural embouchure pivot was occurring and the tiny tiny opening (high range) was being hidden from the camera.

Anyway "The Science" (not really that, but just simple logic) hints that - if a tone is produced in one manner when low frequencies are being produced - it's extremely unlikely that there is going to be some totally different way that a tone is produced as the frequency increases - whereby frequencies are NOT going to be produced in a totally DIFFERENT manner in the high range. Again, it's just that - with the top lip coming down over the bottom lip for a typical brass player's pivot, and the tiny little arched opening creating the highest frequencies (at that point) being hidden from the view of the stationary camera (even were it that the tiny high range opening was able to be properly photographed by the camera) the two dimensional stationary camera video can misguide a viewer into believing that the lips are totally closed at that point.

Believe it, don't believe it, or post another meme with a really inappropriate insult (which struck me as being sort of offensive and misogynistic).
I saved the two links that I found by emailing them to myself. The videos that I encountered were posted on social media, and it didn't surprise me to see what I saw in the videos, as I was already confident that I understood what's happening with vibrating lips when playing a brass instrument. (I'm willing to link them here...)

I also have a theory (notice the word "theory" - something which later might possibly be applied to the scientific method but - until such happens - it's nothing to do with science) about "double buzzing". I believe that it's caused from practicing or playing for so very long (for so very long for so many continuous days) that one of the two lips (it always seems to me that my bottom lip works harder than my top lip - so I'm suspecting the bottom lip) is simply so tired that (particularly on some somehow-triggering frequency due to a particular instrument/mouthpiece combination ??) one lip simply can't sustain enough tension (with enough arched opening of the two lips) to vibrate in unison with the other and physics/acoustics dictate that the tired lip is going to drop to the next lower related frequency. (It might even be that -:with the arched opening closing too much due to tiredness - the two lips are actually just barely touching, and causing one of them to vibrate half as fast as the other.???) I don't have any devices, nor strict application of the scientific method (whereby the scientific method is the only way where there is any real scientific investigation) to back this up, but I tend to believe this is what is happening. My theory is why I believe that the only way to properly rid oneself of a double buzz issue is to back away from playing for a while, rather than employing some additional playing (via some exercise - and even more playing - which someone recommending such yet additional playing might claim will "cure" it)...in other words, backing off of playing until the overtaxed muscles on the one lip are allowed to recover and heal.

I'd glad to share the links to the two social media hosted videos.
Of course, there's nothing to stop someone from seeing what is there to be seen, and claim do not see it.

me:
Being that I have nerves in my skin and muscles and can feel things, when I'm playing very low frequencies in the range around three ledger lines low G and lower - and I can feel that my centers of my lips are at least a quarter of an inch apart - with it being very difficult for me to imagine that there's any way possible that my lips could be touching when producing those very low and very loud frequencies. To restate in a different way, not only do I not feel them touching each other at all, but I could not possibly imagine them being able to touch each other that far apart from each other. Finally, neither "consensus" (an opinion-related word, and not a science related word) nor "name dropping" (not part of the scientific method) are going to cause me to believe differently about this. Again, I'm not responsible for what others believe, whether there's some 11-year-old student or a 55-year-old brass playing celebrity.

finally:
I've had two or three younger players send me notes over the course of this long debate to thank me for expressing my beliefs in regards to this. It's not that their lips - when playing - were ever hitting against each other in the middle when they were playing, but it seems as though - when they quit believing that was occurring - their sound (according to them) actually began improving, and - for that - I received private notes of thanks.

Playing a musical instrument is an extremely complicated thing. Sometimes we want to completely know and understand what's going on - regarding physiology, and - sometimes - thinking too much about the physiology of playing can lead to hang ups.

[bloke]

...so here are the videos that I've seen. Maybe there are more. I'm not "following" this person.

In their low range, their lips are just about as far apart as are the two blades of a bassoon double reed. (When I play an octave lower than they're playing - as well as very loudly - on the tuba, I can tell (feel) that my lips are at least twice as far apart as this.

With the lips mostly parallel or perhaps with the chin slightly extended (which is the way that most brass players tend to pivot to play lower) the opening between the lips is easily seen, but - as this player quickly ascends into the high range. - the pivot (top lip forward) causes the top lip to extend in front of the bottom lip and with the opening between the lips then mostly facing downward, the opening between the lips (which is going to become much smaller as the person plays higher in the range) becomes out of the view of the camera.

The important thing to see is the low range (whereby - with the larger opening and the flatter embouchure position) the space between the lips is easily seen, and the fact that the two lips are vibrating independently is also easily seen. Being that the player is playing loudly, it's also easy to see that the vibration is quite vigorous, yet independent.

I don't know if these videos are hosted anywhere else, but those with social media accounts can view them.

https://www.facebook.com/share/r/1UDiY19tfV/

https://www.facebook.com/share/r/1H6VwyWMnE/

[Colby Fahrenbacher]

finally:
I've had two or three younger players send me notes over the course of this long debate to thank me for expressing my beliefs in regards to this. It's not that their lips - when playing - were ever hitting against each other in the middle when they were playing, but it seems as though - when they quit believing that was occurring - their sound (according to them) actually began improving, and - for that - I received private notes of thanks.

Since you eschew rational scientific processes, it's no surprise you would come to an unfounded conclusion to pat yourself on the back. We know three things from this example:

1. The young players used to believe their lips hit in the middle when they were playing.
2. The young players stopped believing their lips hit in the middle when they were playing.
3. The young players believed their sound improved because of this change.

"This change" has only been shown to have been a psychological change. No evidence has been show in this example to demonstrate any of the mechanics involved, before or after.

Even in a best case scenario where evidence of mechanical change does exist, this scenario only supports the statement "Some players don't require the lips to touch to create a buzz" and doesn't prove the statement "The lips never touch during a buzz".

Donn has consistently taken the only rational stance throughout this entire thread. There exists evidence showing some lips touching and others not, and that specific minutia of a detail is largely immaterial to sound production.

[bloke]

@Colby Fahrenbacher

Do not engage me anymore.

Stop checking in to see what I posted each day (as it is transparently obvious that you check in for no other reason) and (knowing that's the only reason that you show up here) I'm not going to respond to anything that you post, and I'm going to continue on here as if I have blocked you.

I preemptively blocked you on Facebook years and years ago (witnessing the sorts of ways that you responded to others) so that I would never have to engage you there.

Repeating for emphasis, the fact that I seem to live in your head 24/7 is more than just a little bit frightening. I'm actually receiving emails from other members of this board who are expressing concern for my safety.

Do not respond to my posts.
I've been told by the monitors that you've been told to not do this, yet you continue.

Mark should not have to delete my last two useful/informative posts, just because you sh!tposted all over them. If you continue to do this, I'm going to behave as if you're not there.

[Colby Fahrenbacher]

Thanks for agreeing to not troll me anymore. I hope you’ll consider extending the same kind courtesy to other members of this forum.

I’ve had a few posts deleted here, but I’ve never pretended that it was anyone’s fault other than my own. If the moderator’s are deleting posts, then I trust that they are doing so because the post violated forum rules.

But back to the year-old revived thread…

I have no idea if my lips are really fully closing inside the mouthpiece. I suspect they aren’t (for me). When I’ve entertained the idea that my aperture was too open (presumably resulting in a less air-efficient buzz), I wasn’t happy with the results from adjustments I made and reverted. Granted, this could have fallen into the category of an “embouchure change”, which are notoriously time-consuming and are often worse before they get better (if they do), and maybe I didn’t give it enough due diligence.

[russiantuba]

@bloke

There is a board feature that might interest you if you didn’t know, which I believes hides all posts a person makes. They can still see your stuff.



———————

As I get older and older, the Jacobs sayings on paralysis by analysis and the mental concept of sound become more and more true. It’s more important to know and describe you sound than the input that happens. In humans, there are three main facial types: Dolichocephalic, Brachycephalic, and Mesocephalic (this can go back to your coyote face vs pie face discussions a decade ago). This can affect how lips touch and the oral cavity.

In addition, jaw occlusion and the directional stream of air can effect how the lips buzz. Essentially, every student is different and produces sound in a different way. I attempt to not use these elements when teaching (pivot I will say, as everyone has a different pivot point but many tend to lock up). I try to teach as Jacobs/Rocco and that style of school preferred—teaching how it should sound and define the sound and use this as needed if that doesn’t work. So many methods use a one size fits all approach to air/embouchure.

[JCTuba67]

I’m a Bloke fan and a Colby fan why can’t we all just get along and have a friendly conversation. I hate this is happening.

[bloke]

@JCTuba67

I'm much more interested in the topic of the thread.

Christian Lindbergh (a video I stumbled across on YouTube quite a while back) got me thinking about how we actually produce the sound.
He has taken a lot of heat for pointing it out, because so many - for so very long - have believed otherwise.

In his simple demonstration, he played a pitch on his trombone at a medium volume level, removed the instrument/mouthpiece from his face, and - while continuing to "do" just as he had being "doing" when the trombone was previously in position - ALL of the sound (not just the trombone sound, but there was also no residual lips-buzzing sound) stopped, as it was the resistance supplied by the mouthpiece and the trombone was what was allowing his lips to vibrate separately yet in unison (again, not lips being forced apart over-and-over via air, but as with a two-bladed bassoon reed or oboe reed).

His demonstration was so very controversial, as there are so many brass teachers who advocate "free buzzing" (whereby the lips are indeed forced to vibrate in the way that many people incorrectly believe they vibrate inside a mouthpiece).

I don't personally believe that "free buzzing" is harmful, but I also don't see it as particularly helpful.
Helpful (possibly/probably?) is vibrating the lips in the mouthpiece and (if no tuba) placing the small finger over the end of the shank (mostly covering it until the resistance feels the same as actually playing the instrument) and working on "playing" (lips and mouthpiece only) musical passages. Further (combining this exercise with ear-training), doing this while starting a passage (playing in this manner) in tune, turning the tuner OFF, and then checking the pitch of the very last pitch (arguably) might be a very good way to go about this.
The B.E.R.P. devices are fine (which is the same as above, but with a device that actually plugs into a tuba receiver, whereby the player can "ghost-operate" the valves while doing this), but there are so many holes drilled into those things that (in my experience) to match the resistance offered by an actual tuba, all but one of the holes end up needing to be completely taped over or corked shut. ...so (In my view) "free buzzing" isn't harmful, but "playing the mouthpiece with added artificial resistance which equals that of the instrument itself" can probably actually be helpful...and possibly even remarkably helpful.

There's a tremendous amount of hard science (some known, some unknown, some incorrectly known) related to both music and biology/medicine, yet we refer to both music and medicine as "arts". It seems to me that the best musicians are those who concentrate on the "artistic" aspects (while knowing a great deal about the mechanics and hard science), just as with the best medical doctors.

James mentioned Arnold Jacobs, and - when we thing if that pioneer - we think of someone who explored the hard science of brass playing YET (even more) encouraged students to concentrate on the sound. I'm not sure that (in regards to how our lips actually are vibrating) we actually even need to be correct in this understanding, as long as we concentrate on the sound (ie. it probably doesn't matter much who is correct and who is not). That said (particularly when a lot of energy has gone into teaching certain things and recommending certain exercises), being exposed to the possibility that some of the things that have been believed and taught may possibly not be quite the way things actually are (understandably) can be upsetting - with some even labeling such new claims as heretical.

[ronr]

I can’t believe nobody hs posted this yet

[bloke]

If you don't mind, I'll post my own favorite version:




Oh yeah...
Listen to Louie's trumpet playing:
He's actually the ONE exception to the rule, whereby he actually DOES beat his lips against each other to make the sound.

[dp]

I am stunned to have missed this resurrected thread & this particular tidbit

Thanks for agreeing to not troll me anymore. I hope you’ll consider extending the same kind courtesy to other members of this forum.
<-snip->

THAT get's my "Troll Post of the Day Award"