POLL: shorty/fatty (York-like) Holton B-flat tuba with 19-inch bell...

[bloke]

OK...
Now that there is some made-in-USA 3/4" bore brass tubing on this instrument, this can now be designated as a York-style instrument.
...and I also used *secret-formula brass, so...

The slide tubing alignment is all great/remarkable...again: I hope it fits on the instrument so that the rotor can escape the casing.

5th valve assembly


air-leak test (prior to venting and installation (no valve oil / no slide grease)


I believe it is now time to , or get off the pot.

I guess, ONE MORE THING I can do (prior to mounting the valveset and mouthpipe) would be to shorten the valve stems (allowed: by discarding the King top caps, and replacing them with Olds top caps - same threads, but considerably lower risers).
Some thing else would be to mount a water key, while it is really easy to do it.


Thanks for the nice comment, ck.

____________________________
*100% of this 5th valve assembly: junk that was laying around here

[York-aholic]

...and I also used *secret-formula brass,

Secret to you maybe... but I had my spy satellite make a pass over Tennessee yesterday and do a metallurgy scan of your property.

All brass within your property lines came out as 80:20 brass. We won’t discuss the unobtainium in your attic...

[pjv]

...and I also used *secret-formula brass,

Secret to you maybe... but I had my spy satellite make a pass over Tennessee yesterday and do a metallurgy scan of your property.

All brass within your property lines came out as 80:20 brass. We won’t discuss the unobtainium in your attic...

Does a coating of 2% beer count as a secret alloy?

[bloke]

It counts, and – not being a beer drinker (whether $1 “beer or $10 “ale”) – that’s probably just about as good a use of it as any.
At least, it’s easier to buff off than lacquer.

[bloke]

4th valve circuit:
I’m sure that what I did is going to work fine, but its appearance is somewhat “top-heavy“.
Yorkboy’s (similar project) 4th circuit has a much aesthetically-nicer appearance, but also loops some of its tubing around the valve casings, which I was avoiding.
Now that I have laid the valve set exactly where it’s going, I can see that there probably are a couple of ways to do what I’ve done, yet lay it down flatter against the large side of the upper bow of the instrument.
If I end up putting a finish on this instrument, I may delay it, so that I can think about the fourth circuit some more.

[York-aholic]

4th valve circuit:
I’m sure that what I did is going to work fine, but its appearance is somewhat “top-heavy“.
Yorkboy’s (similar project) 4th circuit has a much aesthetically-nicer appearance, but also loops some of its tubing around the valve casings, which I was avoiding.
Now that I have laid the valve set exactly where it’s going, I can see that there probably are a couple of ways to do what I’ve done, yet lay it down flatter against the large side of the upper bow of the instrument.
If I end up putting a finish on this instrument, I may delay it, so that I can think about the fourth circuit some more.

On my similar project (York 33 with King dogleg, mts, pistons and leadpipe), I think I made three 4th circuits before I was happy with things...

[bort2.0]

Joe -- apologies if I missed it. How is Covid the cat doing?

[bloke]

Joe -- apologies if I missed it. How is Covid the cat doing?

astonishingly and statistics-bucking WELL

In a couple of days, it will have been THREE weeks since he received two shots, at which time (when the shots were administered) we were told that he would - very likely - soon be dead.
> He's spending SEVERAL hours each day (even when in the mid-30's, outside) running around, climbing into bushes/trees (chasing birds, etc.)
> He's eating and drinking heartily. (There are things he won't eat - compared to his playmate cat-friend - who will eat ANYTHING, but that has ALWAYS been that way.)
> He "prances" when he walks, and leaps off into other directions - rather than just turning and walking into other directions...as was the case, prior to him demonstrating that he wasn't feeling well.
> He's extremely social (with us, as well as the other cats) and continues his daily "play fights" and "super-fast chases" with his (again: also less than a year old) playmate cat.

I'm trying VERY HARD to not be hopeful, but the vets (in phone conversations) seem semi-astonished...so it's difficult to NOT be encouraged.

I'm taking NO credit, but (what if...??) the fact that I took him in the VERY FIRST DAY I noticed a difference (rather than adopting a "wait and see" tack) actually made a difference? I credit all the prayers (that friends were willing to make for a little cat) over anything else.

That having been said...Read the LAST paragraph (if nothing else)...
https://news.okstate.edu/articles/commu ... _cats.html

[bloke]

OK...
HOLTON TUBA-WISE today was quite a crescendo.

The valveset is mounted, the 5th valve is mounted (several things required in order for that to happen, including more precisely fitting the Jinbao back bearing to the casing, so I won't have to beat the hell out of the rotor's valve stem, whenever I want to remove the rotor (and yes, I know I could have bought detachable hardware from Conn-Selmer, Europe, or a couple of places in the U.S.A., but - in SPITE of SUPER-nestling this valveset - I just wanted to (being on old-school old fart) meet the challenge of dealing with several variables in an algebra/geometry problem. Oh yeah...and put the tuba together with an EMPTY rotor casing, and then installed the rotor and bearing. In spite of remarkably close quarters (again: "nestled"), they install easily.

To describe just how "nestled" this valveset is: When you site across the bell sideways (across the center of the engraving) all you can see of the first valve casing is the first valve top cap...and that 4th valve "glob" (that seems to tower out in front of the tuba) actually can NOT be seen, from that perspective...

...and - when you take a look at the mouthpipe-fitting pictures, below (in particular: those of you who've been able to reuse King mouthpipes) you will definitely see how compact (back-to-front) this instrument was built.

btw...The mouthpipe is NOT yet soldered on at all.

TUNING:
> #1 - great
> #2 - probably short enough (will know when the entire instrument has been shortened, but logic dictates that it is short enough)
> #3 - short enough, after I remove the excess at the bottom (which I've X-ing out in red, in all the pictures.
#4 - great
#5 - great. 1-3-5 is wonderful for B-natural and 4-5 is wonderful for low E. (The 5th circuit is an FF SEMITONE, and NOT an FF whole tone).
> overall pitch level: slightly flat-natured, but this is JUST as I had hoped. The picture below (of what will happen to the main slide bow and main slide ferrules) tells the story. One more thing about the main slide: I spent about a half hour (on another day) working on the main slide bow, of which its tubing was quite OVAL from the factory. It is now ROUND - from its 11/16th inch bore end around to its 3/4th inch bore end.

Anyway...There's quite a bit more little crap left to do, including hardening up all of the new braces, which were stuck in place, today...
...and no: I have NOT begun to build the 5th rotor thumb mechanism, and NO, I don't yet know how the hell it's going to look...but it will "look" some way.







Jinbao rotors comment:
It's funny how close those things are to being "good". It's just that it's obvious that they hurry though a couple of stages in manufacturing that - otherwise - would define them as "good", but - since they (apparently) stop with their manufacturing before those steps, they only seem to end up being "fair". It didn't take that long (an hour, I guess...??) for me to boost this rotor up from "fair" to "good". Am I soliciting other folks' Jinbao rotor tubas going-back-over jobs? NO...I absolutely am NOT.

[hrender]

That is a very well-laid-out machine.

[Kirley]

What informed your decision to go with a FF semitone instead of the "usual" FF whole-step?
Will 245 result in an in tune low Eb?
Or will 14 with a 1-pull be the way to go?
Do you think you'll be able to get down to a low B-natural? (everything down and a pull?)

Sorry, I realize these things are all "we'll see when it's all put together" type of questions. Just wondering what you're expecting to have happen.

[bloke]

What informed your decision to go with a FF semitone instead of the "usual" FF whole-step?
Will 245 result in an in tune low Eb?
Or will 14 with a 1-pull be the way to go?
Do you think you'll be able to get down to a low B-natural? (everything down and a pull?)

Sorry, I realize these things are all "we'll see when it's all put together" type of questions. Just wondering what you're expecting to have happen.

WARNING: RHETORIC

I view the choice of a GG whole tone (on a C tuba) to be "the importance of a really good low F, as 'low F' is a really important pitch, in the range of a tuba".

4-valve B-flat tubas have no problem with 'low F', as it's right there (4th valve). That having been pointed out, the STINKY pitches (with 5-valve C tubas and 4-valve B-flat tubas...and even with FF-whole step 5th valve B-flat tubas) continue to be the 2-4 or 2-3-5 'low F sharp/E-natural' and C sharp/B-natural. 2-4 is usually sharp (with one or both of those pitches) and 2-3-5 is usually flat (with one or both of those pitches). Since 4th-valve C is usually flatter (re: B-flat tubas) than 4th-valve F, I'm predicting that the best B-natural will be 5-1-3, and the best 'low E' will be 5-4. Not meaning to come off as snobby/elitist at all, but I hope to use this instrument in ensembles where pitch generation perfection is critical.

SINCE I HAVE NO WORRIES with 'low F' (being a B-flat tuba), I have the luxury (again: as it is a B-flat tuba) of purposing the 5th valve to address the stinky "2-4 is sharp" issue, rather than the "somehow, this [C] tuba has to be able to play 'low F', without me always having to frantically pull #1, #4, or settle for (flat, with many C tubas) 1-2-4", I'm assigning the 5th valve these more important and beneficial tasks - based on (again) it being a B-flat tuba, and having no "low F" problem.

Do I suspect that 5-2-4 will play a pretty darn nice "low E-flat" (when rarely desired/requested)?
I do suspect so.

Do I understand that this choice of 5th valve circuit length will not allow for a double-low B-natural (without pulling out tons of slides)?
Yes. I understand that. Truly, the only time I ever play the equivalent pitch on my symphonic C tuba ('low C-sharp') is to make my friends/colleagues chuckle, by playing it quite loudly (not in a rehearsal situation). I never really have needed to play 'low C-sharp' - other than once, when an inexperienced young composer included it - musically ineffectively, and I really can't imagine needing a quickly accessible 'low B-natural', either. That having been said...I've actually (albeit rarely) encountered a few 'low C naturals' from time-to-time, and this instrument should be able to produce that pitch.

Am I concerned that finger patterns (in the very low range of the instrument) will be different from those on a typical 5-valve C tuba?
(This is a question that a friend has already asked me, face-to-face.)
I'm not concerned about that at all, mostly because I own/use B-flat, C, E-flat, and F instruments with differing arrays and quantities of valves - some of which are 3+1 compensating, one which features 4 non-compensating valves, some which feature 5 valves, and some which feature 6 valves. When I play each tuba, each tuba "is what it is" (re: length/valves-array). If a future owner - or I - decide that a "long FF whole step 5th valve is more beneficial than I'm currently assessing, a longer contraption can easily be assembled (with Conn-Selmer 3/4" bore inside/outside slide tubing) to insert into the instrument's existing pair of outside slide tubes.

[bloke]

That is a very well-laid-out machine.

Thank-you, and I would like to point out that Yorkboy's similar project (which hasn't been documented, but where a couple of pictures can be found here-and-there) is just as well laid-out, and - arguably - a bit more elegant...

...and - I suspect that Jason/York-aholic's also-similar instrument is also quite elegant.

I encased this project with some not-required-of-a-nice-playing-instrument restrictions...the most challenging of which being making it as skinny as possible - from back-to-front. Partially, I wanted to do that "just because", but the other motive behind that is "so it will fit in this cool little MTS case I got for it".

oh...and here's an answer to a surely-will-eventually-be-asked question:
approximately 23 lbs.

[Kirley]

Thank you!
I like your reasoning.
Having a nicely in tune low B (not double low B) is definitely very useful. Much more needed than most of those basement notes.
Thanks for taking the time to document this build.

[bloke]

Thank you!
I like your reasoning.
Having a nicely in tune low B (not double low B) is definitely very useful. Much more needed than most of those basement notes.
Thanks for taking the time to document this build.

Thanks so much for your interest, sir.

I had to back off, today, and went way out past the back pasture and hauled a bunch of stumps and brush into a nearby ravine (tree trunks, branches, and brush which had fallen on a fence during a storm, months ago) and damaged - not just a fence, but - a fence "T-corner" (where three fence runs come together).

I find that (particularly when "free-styling" a tuba build - ie. "making up crap as I go along") stuff can be overlooked and fail to be properly considered, when moving along too quickly.

That having been said, I may (??) go out to the shop tonight, fire up the heat, turn on AM radio, listen to the kooks rant about space aliens, and shorten the main slide assembly...Hopefully (if that happens) B♭=58.3/116.5 Hz (or maybe even B♭=59/118 Hz, for good measure) might come out of the bell. Currently, the best I am able to do (without a shallow mouthpiece or "lipping") is about 57.5/115 Hz.

[bloke]

OK...
I've got pitch.

In a room that is only heated to the sorta-upper 60's Fahrenheit (perhaps 67°) - and with an extra-deep cup mouthpiece, I can STILL pull this slide out about 5/8 of an inch and land at A=440 tuning.

All the way in, and I'm at A=442 or so...

...so: good

I'll now be hardening up some more solder joints, and slightly adjusting valve circuit lengths (as testing for tuning is a bit nebulous, when stuff is just taped or jammed together, and serious leaks are occurring in two or three places).

For those who are familiar with what a later-era old-style (detachable bell, with upper #1 slide) King model 2341 main slide looks like (or simply refer back to previous pictures), those same people also know how very much this one was shortened, YET none of its tuning range was lost (actually, a slight amount was GAINED), and it still tapers from 11/16" bore to 3/4" bore...and (all up-and-down it's taper) the bow's tubing is ROUND (not oval).

another "positive", tonight:
In a box of junk, I found ONE MORE Olds top valve cap (as one of the four that I had previously rounded up was a bit marginal, as the style of the strike table did not match that of the other three, and the interior - of the "marginal" one - featured floated-in lead solder (ie. probably converted to an Olds top cap from "something else" Olds, Reynolds, or King).

[bloke]

I probably need to go ahead and install the mouthpipe, or I really won't be able to seriously proceed.

I shined it up to inspect it. Thankfully, rippling is very subtle, and dents are tiny (stuff which often occurs during bending).

Additionally, it's not very much out-of-round, either (no more than many factory 'pipes installed on expensive tubas).

A couple of the tiny dents are on the inside curve of the mouthpipe. I could let them go, or I might mark the mouthpipe with magic marker and NOT solder the pipe to the bell where those tiny dents (on the back side) are located.

A technique that I use (to round mouthpipes, WITHOUT screwing up their geometry) is to solder mouthpipes to their instruments and then use bicycle brake cable to pull dent balls through them (fed in from the #1 casing) to round the tubing. Since the mouthpipe is fastened to the instrument, the geometry cannot be distorted while rounding the tubing. A fringe benefit (beyond nice round tubing) is that if any cerrobend, lead, or pitch is still clinging to the brass, this work tends to scuff off those materials.

This mouthpipe's bore expands from c. .550" (14mm) to .689" (17-1/2mm) over less than 15 inches.

In contrast, my cimbasso's mouthpipe (when I made it) expands from approximately .490" (roughly 12-1/2mm) to .658" (almost 16-3/4mm) in over 19 inches...and that instrument's open bugle is 6 feet shorter.

I'm using the old receiver, which may (??) be an old H.N. White era King receiver (rather than the o.e.m. Holton receiver).
I'd describe it's interior taper as being halfway between standard and euro.

bloke "Nothing about this stuff is easy...which is why I don't build 'project' instruments (simply) to resell them, and only solicit subcontracting the preliminary work involved in the early stages of others' 'projects' (ie. dent removal, etc.)"


Those who re-use King mouthpipe tubes in projects will see (from this picture) why
it was best to just make a new one.

[bloke]

tweaking circuit lengths, and hardening braces, and adding water keys...

(pic's wouldn't be particularizing interesting)...

I believe Yorkboy - with his similar and more special instrument - will likely beat me to the finish line, but I'm heading out today.

Frankly, I wish I had some old funky large-diameter solder on hand...(I personally prefer to use it on mouthpipe tubes.)

The amazing young male cat, "Covid" (who was sick with bobcat fever, treated, and then miraculously got well) has disappeared, and I'm grieving about that pretty hard...' need to get up and do, though...

[bloke]

I have now posted a few times without any updated pictures, so I had better address that issue.
It is getting closer.
Lacking are a couple of braces, #5 thumb linkage, and a bunch of water keys, as I do not enjoy dumping slides.
The #5 circuit is a little bit long for an FF semitone (as I had never before constructed a circuit of that particular length), so I’m going to remove the slide part of it, shorten that, and reinstall it. I’m also going to take that opportunity to line up the slide tubes of that assembly a little bit nicer with the body. Once reinstalled, I will brace it to an adjacent body bow.
As the instrument currently sits, I could tape over some water key nipples and play some tunes on the thing, but no: it isn’t finished.
I’m pretty sure that I am satisfied with the overall length of the instrument. Being that it is winter, my work room needs to be heated up to at least 68° for proper testing, and then the instrument itself needs to be warmed up sufficiently for proper testing. All of this takes quite a few minutes to accomplish. Additionally, I have only tested it with off-the-shelf mouthpieces (Hellebergs, etc.) sitting around out in the shop, and really need to take one of my own good mouthpieces out there (whereby some not-comfortable rim is ~not~ offering a great deal of distraction) to final test the overall length.
a few words about bracing
I am really trying to avoid long three-piece “pillar” brave assemblies, as such are typically found on Frankentubas - where piston valvesets hover well above the wrap of the bugle.
Again, I have gone to a great deal of trouble to “nestle“ this piston valveset down into the wrap of the bugle as low as possible - eliminating the need for such braces.

[pjv]

Enjoyable post.

Ironic that someone who makes his own mpc’s doesn’t actually have one in the shop.

About the long semitone valve. I still don’t get it.

I get that B and E are really important, but that can be achieved with a 5th length of just about any pitch.