Solder and flux.

[the elephant]

This is why silver soldering/brazing (in the context we are discussing) is called hard soldering , and tin/lead soldering is called soft soldering.

[ghmerrill]

Formally... silver soldering is brazing and not soldering.

I think it's more accurate to say that it "can be" brazing. Or that this depends very much on what "silver soldering" means. If you mean "soldering with pure silver", then silver soldering is brazing. If it's soldering with "silver solder" where silver is only one component (along with, frequently, copper or zinc), then it may or may not be brazing. Very often "silver solder" is used to refer to an alloy of silver metal and other metals such as copper, tin, zinc, etc. So it's a very ambiguous term.

This is what sloppy use of language/terminology gets you.

[bloke]

Sloppy language results in terminology such as B-flat, C, E flat, and F tubas, all of which can play any of those four pitches. Further, the so-called "tuning note" of any of those is none of those (being that it is A).

The goal is clarity, even more than definitional purity.

[gocsick]

Formally... silver soldering is brazing and not soldering.

I think it's more accurate to say that it "can be" brazing. Or that this depends very much on what "silver soldering" means. If you mean "soldering with pure silver", then silver soldering is brazing. If it's soldering with "silver solder" where silver is only one component (along with, frequently, copper or zinc), then it may or may not be brazing. Very often "silver solder" is used to refer to an alloy of silver metal and other metals such as copper, tin, zinc, etc. So it's a very ambiguous term.

This is what sloppy use of language/terminology gets you.

All silver soldering is considered brazing by any AWS, ASME, or ISO standard.


As far as I can tell the only application historical or current for using pure Ag as a filler metal is vacuum brazing of Be or Be/Ti joints.

More importantly I've found with the instrument repair and manufacturing communities the terms hard soldering, silver soldering, brazing are all understood to mean the same thing and the distinction from soft soldering is also understood. The only confusion appears to be in this thread.

[bloke]

If I call the three different types of attaching metals together via hot metal...
- see no evil
- hear no evil
- speak no evil,
as long as I execute any of them well, it's okay, at least it seems to me.

[ghmerrill]

All silver soldering is considered brazing by any AWS, ASME, or ISO standard.

Just to take one example here ...

The AWS indeed disparages/rejects the term "silver soldering". But what does that mean? It means that if you're using pure silver as your filler material, then "brazing" is the correct term (according to the AWS) to apply -- for the specific temperature-related reasons mentioned previously in this thread.

If you're talking about "silver-bearing solders", it's a different story and AWS classifies that as "soldering" -- but in a case by case way based on the temperature criterion. Many people in the instrument repair business appear to use the term "brazing" to apply to the use of silver-bearing solders that don't meet the AWS brazing criterion.

You're right that there's no confusion about this in the case of organizations like AWS. There's only confusion (about the technically correct sense of the term) when people use "soldering" to apply to brazing with pure silver, or "brazing" to apply to soldering with silver-bearing soft solders (based on the temperature criterion).

There definitely is confusion about it in terms of musical instrument technicians. Here, for example, is Christian Griego trying to explain the difference and ending up with "there are different levels of brazing". And he speaks about "braze" as a kind of material -- in the sense that some materials are solders and some are brazes. This makes the distinction inherently vague -- and is itself confusing. And it also leads you to wonder what the difference is between silver solder (one type of material?) and silver braze (a different type of material?). That's certainly confusing -- and from Christian Griego (!).

When to Braze and When to Solder: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGPI_5_U4nU

[the elephant]

I use the term "brazing" most of the time when referring to what I was taught was called "silver-soldering" because it is easier to type.

[bloke]

yes...but not easier to voice-text:

ie. "braising"

[ghmerrill]

I use the term "brazing" most of the time when referring to what I was taught was called "silver-soldering" because it is easier to type.

I guess my problem is that I originally started brazing on farm implements (with brass brazing rod), then at some later point used silver solder on some brass instruments.

I just looked in my box of solder stuff and have found an unopened (hence somewhat aged) Master Mechanic "Silver Solder Kit". Extensive research (well, okay, just one query, but that counts) shows that it is 96% tin, 4% silver, and 0% lead. So I guess I should say that this is a brazing solder, although it doesn't look a lot like the brazing rod that I have. Also, it seems a little odd to call it silver solder when 96% of it is tin.

[gocsick]

I just looked in my box of solder stuff and have found an unopened (hence somewhat aged) Master Mechanic "Silver Solder Kit". Extensive research (well, okay, just one query, but that counts) shows that it is 96% tin, 4% silver, and 0% lead. So I guess I should say that this is a brazing solder, although it doesn't look a lot like the brazing rod that I have. Also, it seems a little odd to call it silver solder when 96% of it is tin.

Except that 96/4 Sn/Ag is a soft solder that only melts at about 225C. It is close to the eutectic for that binary.. it flows at only 30C about 60/40 Pb/Sn



I see you point about confusion

[the elephant]

I use the term "brazing" most of the time when referring to what I was taught was called "silver-soldering" because it is easier to type.

I guess my problem is that I originally started brazing on farm implements (with brass brazing rod), then at some later point used silver solder on some brass instruments.

I just looked in my box of solder stuff and have found an unopened (hence somewhat aged) Master Mechanic "Silver Solder Kit". Extensive research (well, okay, just one query, but that counts) shows that it is 96% tin, 4% silver, and 0% lead. So I guess I should say that this is a brazing solder, although it doesn't look a lot like the brazing rod that I have. Also, it seems a little odd to call it silver solder when 96% of it is tin.

That is a lead-free soft solder, and it sucks to take apart or clean off. I refuse to use it. Hate that stuff!



The silver solder sold by Ferree's or Allied usually contains at least 35% silver, and it flows around 1,300º F.

[ghmerrill]

That is a lead-free soft solder, and it sucks to take apart or clean off. I refuse to use it. Hate that stuff!

Well, it's got silver in it and I'M going to call it "silver solder".

However, it's unopened -- and on your analysis I will now pitch it into the trash.

[catgrowlB]

Yamaha has been using lead-free solder for over 20 years now. Somehow they make it work
And Dan Schultz (tubatinker) told me years ago that the 3% silver bearing solder is up to 10× stronger than regular soft solder. I believe him

[bloke]

This thread's not about me, but I've already stated that I've used all sorts of solder when it was all I had.

Solid wire various percentages of lead and tin, I really don't like using big old fat 1/8th inch thick stuff (because I prefer not making messes), I've used up a roll of plumbing solder waiting for replacement lead tin solder to come, I've used rosin core solder on band instruments.

I'm pretty sure that silver bearing plumbing solder IS stronger than most lead tin solder alloys, but if someone's determined to tear something up (as are young scholars), they're going to tear it up somehow. I currently have a 5 lb spool (I liked the price and bought it from a solder supply house) of 50/50 that I'm running off to empty 1 lb spools. I'm happy with it. I can use it without making a mess and it's probably the fastest thing that I could choose to use.
I like good, and I like fast. It's good and fast.

[arpthark]

Yamaha has been using lead-free solder for over 20 years now. Somehow they make it work
And Dan Schultz (tubatinker) told me years ago that the 3% silver bearing solder is up to 10× stronger than regular soft solder. I believe him

My friend who works at Shires told me that they also moved to all lead-free solder a few years ago.

I use silver-bearing solder to fill in cracks and things like that when I don't want to completely obliterate the finish by [silver] brazing.

[bloke]

For all we know, the laws in Japan may (??) require the use of lead-free solder.

[gocsick]

Yamaha has been using lead-free solder for over 20 years now. Somehow they make it work
And Dan Schultz (tubatinker) told me years ago that the 3% silver bearing solder is up to 10× stronger than regular soft solder. I believe him

It is quite a bit stronger.. but not 10X.. more like 4-6X . It doesnt flow nearly as well and it won't bridge large gaps like lead bearing solders.. So you need better fitting joints.

[arpthark]

Votaw has some relatively inexpensive solder:

https://votawtool.com/collections/solde ... 4142087303

I would get 1/16" 60/40 or 50/50.

Here is Votaw's little blurb about solders:

[ghmerrill]

Votaw has some relatively inexpensive solder:

I believe that's what I've been using since Dan Schultz recommended the 60/40 mix to me. I got a spool of the 1/16" stuff and still have a bunch left -- but the label has lost legibility at this point.

[bloke]

speaking of which...

Mrs bloke and I went on one of our odysseys today to a whole bunch of schools (as well as dropping off @bort2.0's euphonium at a Walgreens which accepts FedEx shipments. One of the schools was a particularly good customer who has bought instruments from us and doesn't just treat us like some dirty old repair shop but actually treats us like a music store.

They have been borrowing one of those large bore four valve Jupiter sousaphones that weighs (not quite) 5000 lbs., but the school from which they had borrowed it needed it back because they ended up with one more student, and this school really didn't need to borrow it this year, because it was basically one extra instrument by this time.

The top brass plate had come unsoldered from the #1 piston, and the band director was thinking they were going to have to buy another #1 piston.

I saw that someone had super glued that top plate back in, so I had to get rid of all that jazz and I soldered it back in place. (Yeah they should have hard soldered this but they didn't. (As I've told you I've discovered, the super expensive priced Japanese company soft solders their pistons together on their marching instruments and then nickel plates them. ) It's easy to tell about the clocking of that top plate, because -:first of all - you examine the holes and look where the track is in the casing and then you find the place on the piston where there's an eighth inch wide spot where there's no vertical tracking and there's your alignment of your top plate.

I had all my solder and acid and my torch and some other things I asked Mrs bloke to round up before we left, but what I didn't do was to double check. The propane bottle was so empty that it wouldn't establish a flame that was much larger than turning the torch all the way down.

That said, I was lucky enough to generate enough heat to get that top plate soldered on for the band director so they could return that sousaphone in good shape (even though someone at the other school had probably done the super gluing).

Then I decided to remove the neck and discovered that the male 2-inch brass tube that inserts into the receiver was stuck in the receiver and needed to be unstuck and then soldered back into the neck.
Even though I didn't have a steel rod or a dent ball or an expander or anything like that to get that tube unstuck, I put the neck back onto that tube put a little pressure on it with a rag and a pair of pliers, got everything freed up, and extracted the tube that way without marking anything up.

The thing was that by then the propane bottle was ridiculously empty but - with enough time, patience, and just enough propane (whereby the flame was already down to a white flame) I actually managed to get that part soldered back on as well.