Are some tubas just better (or just not great) for bands?

[bort2.0]

The "orchestra balance" thread got me thinking...

Are some tubas just "better" (or "worse") for playing in bands?

My personal experience with an *excellent* Miraphone 188 was that it worked amazingly well in an orchestra. But as the only tuba in a large band... it wasn't nearly as much fun. It *could* get by okay, but it required a lot more physical effort on my part to keep the instrument at the higher end of its output. I was playing about 20% orchestra and 80% band at the time, so it was a decision of logic to sell that 188. Even though I adored that tuba.

When I see vintage 186's, or -- gasp -- even my Alexander 163... I see these as tubas that have a great amount of color and beauty to the sound. But not necessarily tubas that are ideal for use in a large band, when you're the only tuba and need volume, power, and presence.

Bands are loud. Brass players in bands are -- let's be polite but honest here -- not always the best at dynamics. Nor do conductors often fight the ensemble to get dynamics where they could/should be. All to say -- it's gonna be loud, and if you're the only tuba, you'd better be loud too.

Rambling thoughts... what do you all think?

[KingTuba1241X]

Yeah pretty much agreed, but I think with a really powerful player behind it the 186 and 188 should be "good" in a larger group. If you're the only one in a group of 50-60 or more I don't think your sound will cut much no matter what horn you're playing unless maybe a large Kaiser like a 190 CC or BBb. My biggest pet peeve is not the brass players, it's over-zealous timpani players who nullify the tuba part completely.

[bloke]

Redneck posts - bragging about (or even subtly implying) player prowess - are stupid and borderline (if not totally) offensive. Further, there is almost never sound files to back up such posts and claims...
...so here is one such post:
In the later '70s, I attended a state university with a fine-sounding band. Using the term, “wind ensemble” was coming into heavy fashion as a copy of Eastman. This was neither a huge nor tiny band (c. 50 players), and only SOME sections (wisely chosen: the "mezzo-voiced" saxes and horns) were one-on-a-part. The new band director labeled us a “symphonic wind ensemble“…Whatever...
There had been three of us in the tuba section. One of the three simply didn’t have the chops to play the ungraded (beyond “5“ or “6“) tough material we were performing, nor the Hindsley transcriptions. The other two of us were constantly telling him, “Don’t play here“. That person was sent down to band #2. The remaining (second) person in the section was a high school and junior high school colleague of mine (not the one to whom I often referred). I believe I’ve told everyone here that each tuba player in our high school band was expected to make “first chair” in the all-state band - at least when they were in the 12th grade...and he did.
The thing was this:
He just didn’t have the money to both go to college and also live away from his home (where his abusive stepfather was), so he auditioned into the Army, and was sent to Germany to play tuba and bass in a band there...
...so our college band was down to one tuba.
When Wichita BIC first started advertising nationally, they were selling Miraphone tubas for barely above cost. I bought a 184 from them for about 1400 bucks, and had someone add a fifth valve of my design to it… It’s the same tuba that Ron Bishop eventually owned.
I used that 184 in that band all by myself… It made enough racket and it made a good racket.
Next to me in the attached picture is (trumpeter) Dave Duro, who now plays with Burning River Brass…if they/any of us ever have concerts again.
Something tells me that your 188 was plenty adequate. Sometimes, huge mouthpieces tend to mute/dull/diminish the sound produced by wind instruments. Of course, I have no idea what you were using.

[Three Valves]

I'm sorry, did you say anything important?

I was oggling the flute section, AGAIN!!

[bloke]

I'm sorry, did you say anything important?

I was oggling the flute section, AGAIN!!

The second from the left was partially native American, an extremely nice person, particularly beautiful, a very fine player.
She expressed a bit of interest in bloke just about the same time that the future Mrs. bloke was doing the same.
bloke has always striven to avoid complicated situations, which was the case then as well.
Sadly, that nice-person/beautiful/talented flautist died of cancer, a couple of decades ago.
The grinning/upbeat, mustached (also talented) baritone saxophonist is gone, as well...as well as the *director: one of the kindest men I ever met.
____________________
* https://www.legacy.com/obituaries/comme ... &fhid=5683
This was a tribute to him, and remains as the header of the band's alumni page:
https://scontent.fmem1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/ ... e=602EEABD

===============

Possibly, the best tubas for bands are fairly large, pitched in B-flat, and easy to play in tune...perhaps with three-or-so players who - never having to push - can sound more like an orchestra bass section.

[MN_TimTuba]

Brett,
A couple of things from my limited experience:
1) most rural MN adult community bands have members in the 40-85 yr old range, and (with some exceptions, of course) seldom play with the ...uh.. energy and enthusiasm and power of a college band packed with 18-23 yr olds.
2) most rural MN community bands have from about 30 to possibly 50 members, seldom over that.
3) for a couple of years our Detroit Lakes band played in a band festival in St. Paul. MOST (not all, of course) bands had 2 to even 4 tuba players. Few (like the DL band) had only one.
4) SO, if a good adult tuba player is in an average adult community band with a tuba section of 2-3 players, he or she will probably be fine with any 7/8 or 4/4 tuba. Heck, I played in a band in Fargo a few years ago with a guest tuba player in our section (low brass tuba professor in Duluth) who played a Besson EEb, and he was an absolute monster, tho' I don't think he played anything lower than his root low Eb (the 345 took care of the lowest pitches). If I knew that I was going to be the sole tuba in a good-sized adult band with very good players, I (myself, and not speaking for anyone else) would hope to play a good 5/4 or 6/4 tuba, but could probably get by with a good 4/4 horn.
5) You and I both know a player in Mounds View who plays a JP 379B in community band, and he says that compactly wrapped horn does the job just fine, and I don't doubt it.
6) Are you to be joining a community band in MPLS?

Tim

[Three Valves]

The Mighty Sound of the South Marching Band

[bort2.0]

Adequate? Who wants to stop at adequate. :)

When I sold the tuba, I was using a Sellmansberger Symphony. One problem is that the directors of those groups seemed to want more, on a continuous basis. I mean, maybe the gold brass of the 188 had a minor effect, but more likely because of the loud loud loud rest of the band, it's like "hey where is the tuba, aren't you loud loud loud?" An exaggeration, but you get the idea.

I also think a strong bass trombone player can help tremendously with defining the bass voice of the band. But a good bass trombone player in a band... Rare, in my experience.

It'll be a while until I get to try out the Alex 163 in that kind of setting, so I have to be patient.

I actually REALLY liked the Willson 3050RZ for how it played and worked in bands. But the ergonomics of those rotary valves got me in the end. The piston 3050 is a fine tuba to me as well, sort of wish I could try another sometime.

[MN_TimTuba]

Brett,
So perhaps a bell-front King 2341 or 1240 would be an affordable spare horn to store in the attic until you're ready to commit to a community band? Anything from there on up should be more than 'adequate'!
BTW, I'm extending an open invitation to sit in with the DL band some evening after we fire up again, just to see how things go in a decent adult community band. It's a drive, but you'd still be home by midnight.
Tim

[bloke]

Adequate? Who wants to stop at adequate. :)

When I sold the tuba, I was using a Sellmansberger Symphony. One problem is that the directors of those groups seemed to want more, on a continuous basis. I mean, maybe the gold brass of the 188 had a minor effect, but more likely because of the loud loud loud rest of the band, it's like "hey where is the tuba, aren't you loud loud loud?" An exaggeration, but you get the idea.

I also think a strong bass trombone player can help tremendously with defining the bass voice of the band. But a good bass trombone player in a band... Rare, in my experience.

It'll be a while until I get to try out the Alex 163 in that kind of setting, so I have to be patient.

I actually REALLY liked the Willson 3050RZ for how it played and worked in bands. But the ergonomics of those rotary valves got me in the end. The piston 3050 is a fine tuba to me as well, sort of wish I could try another sometime.

As just posted in the "other-large-ensembles" thread, THIS IS "the $h!t" (in my view)...but they also tend to cost more than some other stuff.
I was very lucky to obtain a very good one and for (not cheap, but) a lower price than I've ever seen advertised.



There are some recordings of that band with that 184...plenty of sound...I believe that Persichetti's Masquerade is one of the selections...I wonder if I can obtain one of those old l.p.'s...(??)

[bort2.0]

Brett,
A couple of things from my limited experience:
1) most rural MN adult community bands have members in the 40-85 yr old range, and (with some exceptions, of course) seldom play with the ...uh.. energy and enthusiasm and power of a college band packed with 18-23 yr olds.
2) most rural MN community bands have from about 30 to possibly 50 members, seldom over that.
3) for a couple of years our Detroit Lakes band played in a band festival in St. Paul. MOST (not all, of course) bands had 2 to even 4 tuba players. Few (like the DL band) had only one.
4) SO, if a good adult tuba player is in an average adult community band with a tuba section of 2-3 players, he or she will probably be fine with any 7/8 or 4/4 tuba. Heck, I played in a band in Fargo a few years ago with a guest tuba player in our section (low brass tuba professor in Duluth) who played a Besson EEb, and he was an absolute monster, tho' I don't think he played anything lower than his root low Eb (the 345 took care of the lowest pitches). If I knew that I was going to be the sole tuba in a good-sized adult band with very good players, I (myself, and not speaking for anyone else) would hope to play a good 5/4 or 6/4 tuba, but could probably get by with a good 4/4 horn.
5) You and I both know a player in Mounds View who plays a JP 379B in community band, and he says that compactly wrapped horn does the job just fine, and I don't doubt it.
6) Are you to be joining a community band in MPLS?

Tim

Hey wait... I turned 40 a few months ago, so I'm now in the lack of energy and enthusiasm category? Ugh... :)

Good points though, and thanks for the reset about the size and type of ensembles around here. Back in Baltimore and in New York City, I was often the only tuba player, or one of two players (who fall in the category you mention above). I will eventually join a community band down here, whenever that becomes possible. We'll see!

[Stryk]

What is that?

THIS IS "the $h!t" (in my view)...but they also tend to cost more than some other stuff.
I was very lucky to obtain a very good one and for (not cheap, but) a lower price than I've ever seen advertised.



There are some recordings of that band with that 184...plenty of sound...I believe that Persichetti's Masquerade is one of the selections...I wonder if I can obtain one of those old l.p.'s...(??)

[Stryk]

When I see vintage 186's, or -- gasp -- even my Alexander 163... I see these as tubas that have a great amount of color and beauty to the sound. But not necessarily tubas that are ideal for use in a large band, when you're the only tuba and need volume, power, and presence.

Granted, it was back in the stone age, but when I was at FSU, I played my 186 in a 90 pc symphony, Wind ensemble (1 on a part), brass quintet, bands, opera orchestra - it did it all. Guess I didn't know it wouldn't do all that, but no one complained.

[bort2.0]

MW Thor, early small bell version

Actually, I would have done just as well to.keep that sweet old PT6 that I had. But, it was too much $ invested in a tuba at the time. Same goes for now... But I do wish I had that tuba back.

Let's not go crazy though, I have a ridiculously fine Alex 163, that I love playing. Just a weird feeling to not use it in public, or have the chance to try it that way to see how it actually works for me IRL.

[lost]

As a former community band director in a past life, we had one tuba player on a 186 and he was a great player but it definitely got lost in a 40 member band. I was always asking for more and not getting it. Not because he wasn't giving enough, but rather the darker tone with less color got completely drowned out.

[MN_TimTuba]

As a former community band director in a past life, we had one tuba player on a 186 and he was a great player but it definitely got lost in a 40 member band. I was always asking for more and not getting it. Not because he wasn't giving enough, but rather the darker tone with less color got completely drowned out.

Here's a speculative question - do you think if you'd had another 1 or 2 M186's that would have been the answer? Or if your player had used a quality 5/4 or 6/4 tuba it would have gotten you what you - as the director - were looking for?
Tim

[bort2.0]

As a former community band director in a past life, we had one tuba player on a 186 and he was a great player but it definitely got lost in a 40 member band. I was always asking for more and not getting it. Not because he wasn't giving enough, but rather the darker tone with less color got completely drowned out.

This is what I was trying to describe, thank you!

Conversely, a few years ago at a TubaChristmas, I remember going full throttle on the Willson, in a group of 120+ (or whatever...) and thinking "whoa... Cuts straight through."

[bloke]

MW Thor, early small bell version

I'm not certain when I bought it (used, from blah-blah student in Cincinnati), but - thinking back to my memory of my son's demeanor (who accompanied me) on that trip, I'm thinking it may well have been twenty years ago.

[prairieboy1]

Our tuba section in our Community Concert Band is myself playing a King 2341 and my stand partner playing a VMI 103. Both BBb tubas and plenty enough for our 55 person band. I played my King Recording Bass in this band for many years and then purchased the 2341 and found that the blend was much better in the Concert band using it. The Recording Bass is now on polka duty, if and when that ever returns. The best tuba that I have ever played in any band is a Boosey&Hawkes 3 valve BBb from 1943 that I found in our storage room at the band hall when I tripped over it. It looked like someone had taken a baseball bat to it and it was covered in tarnish and had a piece of baling wire wrapped around one of the ferrules to keep it from falling off. Once it had been properly cleaned and had the baling wire "repair" properly fixed(ie. the ferrule soldered back on), I used it and loved the sound and the fact that it played superbly in tune.

[bort2.0]

MW Thor, early small bell version

I'm not certain when I bought it (used, from blah-blah student in Cincinnati), but - thinking back to my memory of my son's demeanor (who accompanied me) on that trip, I'm thinking it may well have been twenty years ago.

I always thought you bought it around 2009 as one of those WWBW closeout sale instruments. I do think the Thor itself, as a model, is about 15-20 years old. Hard to believe, but I guess it all adds up!

Also, Tim -- thanks for the constant invitations to get up north for tuba, friendship, etc. I promise you, I'll make it work out at some point! :)