Are some tubas just better (or just not great) for bands?

[peterbas]

...

[matt g]

So many variables at play. I think any decent 4/4 size horn will suffice.

I’d add that for most bands without skilled players, having the players on the same make and model of tuba is important, provided the horns are fairly consistent. I’ve always thought the 2341 is a good choice for this purpose.

[bort2.0]

Maybe the problem actually is -- bands should have more than 1 tuba player. That's another topic altogether.

Or worse yet, Bort has to get out of his mind the idea of a perfect 5/4 rotary CC tuba.

[Dan Tuba]

I have used a Conn2XJ tuba at work and in community bands since 2014. It took me a little while to get comfortable with these kind of tubas, but over the years Conn2XJ tubas (I have bought and sold them multiple times, always regretted selling lol), have served me well in the types of ensembles and music that I play/perform regularly.
https://youtu.be/LTTRkfoC8L4

Although I couldn't afford my own,(belongs to the Army,) I had access to a MW195P the past few years. It's a nice tuba, and seems perfect for "band."

[bort2.0]

I've never encountered a piston Fafner IRL...but the rotary ones are quite fine.

Something like a Miraphone 496 or B&S GR-55 would likely be a great fit for my desires as well. But for goodness sakes, make on in CC!

Closest I know of in CC is the Willson 3050RZ (lousy ergonomics), MW Tuono (rare and expensive), and the MW 2155R (intonation). Am I forgetting another non-Kaiser legitimately 5/4 CC rotary tuba?

[jonesbrass]

Closest I know of in CC is the Willson 3050RZ (lousy ergonomics), MW Tuono (rare and expensive), and the MW 2155R (intonation). Am I forgetting another non-Kaiser legitimately 5/4 CC rotary tuba?

What about the B&S PT-6?

[bort2.0]

Closest I know of in CC is the Willson 3050RZ (lousy ergonomics), MW Tuono (rare and expensive), and the MW 2155R (intonation). Am I forgetting another non-Kaiser legitimately 5/4 CC rotary tuba?

What about the B&S PT-6?

Well... I obviously forgot that. I owned a GREAT one, and should have kept it. But needed some $ quick to put down for a house, and wasn't playing the tuba, so... I wouldn't mind trying another PT-6, but that older handmade one had some "zip" and "enthusiasm" to it that the newer ones just don't have.

After a little time on your 6/4, how do you compare that to the 3050? (You can PM me back if you prefer)

[Doc]

I've never encountered a piston Fafner IRL...but the rotary ones are quite fine.

Something like a Miraphone 496 or B&S GR-55 would likely be a great fit for my desires as well. But for goodness sakes, make on in CC!

Closest I know of in CC is the Willson 3050RZ (lousy ergonomics), MW Tuono (rare and expensive), and the MW 2155R (intonation). Am I forgetting another non-Kaiser legitimately 5/4 CC rotary tuba?

I don't see Miraphone making a 5/4 CC anytime soon. You could acquire a Bruckner and do well with it (super easy to play, very nice intonation, dreamy valves, @$$ buster low range, fits in bort's tiny damned car!), or simply get a 496 and finger everything one whole step higher.

The Tuono is like a CC sister to the GR55, but if you want one, you are going to really pay for it. There might still be a used one or two currently floating around in the $10-11K range. Heck, there was a Siegfried for sale last year for the same price. I am probably stupid for not getting it.

[Three Valves]

This is about Band music, right??

Band starts with "B" right??

As in BBb, right??

Why fight it??

Why insist on this CC Crap??

[bort2.0]

Doc, I've owned that car longer than I've owned any tuba, and I'll be damned if I'm giving it up now!

I forgot about the Miraphone Bruckner! Yes, a very fine tuba, and perhaps one to try again as well. Not many out there, oddly enough... Goodness, actually, how did I forget about that tuba. Long ago when I had the 1291, I always wanted a rotary version of it... and was thrilled to learn that Miraphone already had that underway.

I played and loved a gold brass Bruckner at Baltimore Brass a few years ago. Definitely feels a click smaller than something like the Willson 3050, but it is a very fine tuba.

I think I'm just looking for something that can unlock the power and "fake it" as a large tuba when needed, but without being a 6/4 tubby woof-fest.

Or, in terms of cars, I think of it like this:
* A 4/4 tuba is like a regular car -- you can drive 80 mph, sure. Might take a while to get there. Might push the engine pretty good to get there. Might be a little noisy or not where you want to stay for long. But it'll work.
* A 4/4+ tuba is a nicer car, or at least a car with a bigger engine -- it gets to 80mph quicker. It's quieter and smoother. But still, makes you feel like you're not going to get much past there. You could probably get to 90mph. Maybe a little more. But there will be a point where you realize it just wasn't intended to drive like this.
* A 5/4 tuba is a luxury car -- gets to 80mph without much complaining. You could get up to 100mph without much trouble either (although really, you don't need to go 100mph on a highway, ever. Maybe central Montana, if that's still a thing... but maybe just on a racetrack). You feel like you could get up to 120 mph, too, and maybe more. But that's REALLY something you don't need to do, almost ever. But it can get way up there, way more easily.
* A 6/4 tuba is a racecar. 0-60 is a joke, even 120 is not much effort. You could maybe do a whole lot more. All of this is for a racetrack. Driving one of these on the highway is legal, and will get you up to the max speed you should drive, quickly and without much effort. It'll be fun, but you'll be holding back a lot. But for an engine or a tuba... that sound!

Haha, and of course, most highways are 55 to 65 mph speed limits. So any of these would function just fine. So, there's that!

[tclements]

WARNING! HIGHLY OPINIONATED OPINION AHEAD.

As a conductor, my desire for the tuba section is to function as a bass section, like in an orchestra. I MUCH prefer 3 tubists playing Forte, to two tubists playing FF (double forte). Having said that, my preference is for large BBb or CC tubas. The main issue is intonation. So, it is my preference that all tubists play a 5 valve tuba, or have SOME kind of tuning jigger on the 2nd or main slide. In my 55 piece wind orchestra, we carry 3 tubas (Adams 4/4 CC, Mirafone Bruckner, Mirafone BBb 191 5 valve). In my 65 piece community band, 5 tubas (Alexander 173, Holton 345 BBb, Wessex Luzern, Wessex Prokofiev, large St Pete BBb). In my brass band (27 horns) we carry 6 (PT6P, Holton 345 BBb, Prokofiev BBb, Mirafone Bruckner, B&S 4/4 F, MW 2260RA F tuba). I like big tubas.

BUT, play what you love to play, play what ya got, and let the conductor sort it out.

ENJOY!

[lost]

As a former community band director in a past life, we had one tuba player on a 186 and he was a great player but it definitely got lost in a 40 member band. I was always asking for more and not getting it. Not because he wasn't giving enough, but rather the darker tone with less color got completely drowned out.

Here's a speculative question - do you think if you'd had another 1 or 2 M186's that would have been the answer? Or if your player had used a quality 5/4 or 6/4 tuba it would have gotten you what you - as the director - were looking for?
Tim

I wished for a larger tuba to give more presence. I knew the color of the horn wasn't giving me what I wanted, so no I didn't want more of the same horns. I subscribed to the pyramid of sound where I wanted that omnipresent bass sound in the mix.

Some semi-professional/professional wind organizations in my area completely muzzle the bass voices in even larger groups with more tubas. No idea why.

[KingTuba1241X]

How is adding more of something muzzling it? I’ve found the opposite to be true unless the “more” part is adding mediocre players missing notes or playing Piano when the band is at Forte.

[bort2.0]

Tony -- always great to hear your thoughts, you've been through everything on both sides. I like your idea of making it the conductor's problem. :)

As MN_Tim reminded me, things are different out here in Minnesota, and my previous experience (me being the only tuba player in a large band) may not likely be repeated out here. So that's a good thing in some ways! But then, in an ensemble with several tubas... why not be the "big dog."

I guess the overall idea remains the same though...the germs need to go away, so we can all go play and get on with life again.

[Doc]

This is about Band music, right??

Band starts with "B" right??

As in BBb, right??

Why fight it??

Why insist on this CC Crap??

B for band, B for tuba... I like it.

BBb = a band's tuba section: B - Big Bflat tuba, B - Big Bflat tuba, b - small Bflat tuba


It occurs to me that the rest of the world doesn't care about our CC infatuation/indoctrination in the US. Manufacturers only care to the point of ROI.
_____________________

Consider this:

It's likely that the vast majority of the "CC only" crowd in the US started on BBb. It's not like learning a new key from scratch. Just like riding a bicycle, BBb fingerings WILL come back. Ask me how I know...

Hey, I get it. I'm the first one to stand up and say that I'm lazy - I have avoided EEb for years, not because I'm an F tuba snob, but because I don't really want to go to all the work of becoming a proficient reader on EEb. Not because I can't, but because I don't want to spend the required time and brain power. And I'm probably a complete dumb@$$ because of it. But nearly everyone (at least in the US) who demands a CC has ALREADY LEARNED BBb. It was likely what they played all through grade school. They ain't lernin' nuttin' from scratch, so why the excuses? Those skills are still in there - they would only need to get on the bike and ride. It would come back soon enough. It's not like we all have a bunch of gigs we might mess up on while trying to regain our BBb balance. And superb BBb instruments are available that make incredible sounds. If I were in a community band, I'd definitely bring a BBb as a default choice. Of course, if all I owned was a CC, EEb, or F, I'd bring whatever I owned. If it were a serious community band, and I was going to be serious in my commitment to it, I'd consider acquiring a BBb (or other key) that made the best sound for the group and the section (2341, 345, Prokofiev, 186, Thor, whatever)

But we're still a somewhat free country - folks can play what they want for whatever reasons they want, and I ain't mad at 'em and I ain't pickin' on 'em. But let's be honest - picking up a nice BBb tuba and playing the heck out of it is NOT going to be a herculean mental effort for CC players in the US. And when a slew of top pros have been adding good BBb tubas to their lineup, that should tell us something about the importance of BBb.

But maybe more important than all that, show up on time, be nice, don't act like a jackass, learn your parts at home (if necessary), and do your best to play in tune and in time.

Doc (who, despite his laziness and dumbassery, is attempting to read in EEb )

[Doc]

Doc, I've owned that car longer than I've owned any tuba, and I'll be damned if I'm giving it up now!

Gee, I wonder why?

I forgot about the Miraphone Bruckner! Yes, a very fine tuba, and perhaps one to try again as well. Not many out there, oddly enough... Goodness, actually, how did I forget about that tuba. Long ago when I had the 1291, I always wanted a rotary version of it... and was thrilled to learn that Miraphone already had that underway.

I played and loved a gold brass Bruckner at Baltimore Brass a few years ago. Definitely feels a click smaller than something like the Willson 3050, but it is a very fine tuba.

I tried a goldbrass Bruckner... it was stupid-good!


And you already know I can't let the "car" stuff and the "CC" stuff pass by without poking the bear.

[lost]

How is adding more of something muzzling it? I’ve found the opposite to be true unless the “more” part is adding mediocre players missing notes or playing Piano when the band is at Forte.

Badly worded. Organizations with more tubas completely muzzle the bass voices. All semi professional/professional players and their sound does not carry out front at all. I assume with players of that quality, they are muzzled or simply not encouraged, or simply have more experience in orchestras.

Carrying over stringed instruments and limited winds is easy.

Carrying over 15 clarinets, 7 trombones, 8 trumpets, 7 saxes, a battery of percussion etc etc etc is much harder!

[bort2.0]

Carrying over stringed instruments and limited winds is easy.

Carrying over 15 clarinets, 7 trombones, 8 trumpets, 7 saxes, a battery of percussion etc etc etc is much harder!

In my experience, the "limited winds" in orchestras (even community orchestras) are MUCH better than the masses of winds in a band. Better tone, intonation, articulations, dynamics... it all just functions better, and makes the work of the tuba a lot more defined.

[Dubby]

Most of what MN_Tim said rings true for the community bands I played with in southern MN as well except for one. My hometown had a good mix of the older folks who seemed to have plenty of energy, but a few of them were retired semi-pro/pros.

Plus we had a good group of college students who were home to work in the summers and would play when they had the chance. Most of the time, I would be the only tubist however and seemed to do the job “adequately” on various instruments from a 3/4 CC to a 4/4 franken, 186 CC, to an older 5/4 BBb. Probably in that 40-50 range of players.

Some of the instruments made my job easier, of course. In college, for a semester or two I played exclusively a YEB 321, (that’s the Eflat, right?) in band and orchestra in the top groups at a strong university. Never had any complaints or requests for “more”, and in fact that was probably the most fun I had while playing.

[Dubby]

In my experience, the "limited winds" in orchestras (even community orchestras) are MUCH better than the masses of winds in a band. Better tone, intonation, articulations, dynamics... it all just functions better, and makes the work of the tuba a lot more defined.

I can relate to this too. The orchestra winds were the top chairs from the top band, so it was a much easier time to blend when needed or to play out