Holton 345 info seeking

[cjk]

Ok, you're adding a lot of qualifiers there...

But if you posted here WTB Holton 345... How long would you expect to wait on it? Maybe I'm wrong though!

They seem to come up for sale often enough. I'm sure if the OP wanted one enough, one could be found without too much trouble.

I would have your money together and ready to go before you post something like that though.

[JeffT96]

I’m really in the research and fundraising stage of things at the moment. Thus I was wondering about general availability and price range. I’ve definitely gotten a decent idea of both now -I think. So, thanks to all who replied.

[JeffT96]

@JeffT96, there’s a thread over here...

http://forums.chisham.com/viewtopic.php?t=62213

That has some decent information albeit with a few holes due to posts being removed.

Regardless, looks like not a tremendous number were made (especially compared to Kings and Conns) and only for a couple of decades. Likely a few hundred at most were made?

The one thing to be learned is that if you find a 345, if a competent tech hasn’t pulled it apart and put it back together with care, that should probably be the first order of business. Moreover, because they are also all at least 40 years old now.

Thanks! I have a vague memory of seeing this thread over there before everything got ...censored. I had forgotten many details though.

[bloke]

I will be finished with these two economy King tubas right away, the 90-year-old Holton baritone needs to be finished up for the person who is waiting for it, and I have a funny Miraphone tuba to fix up and sell to a local school after that (I may show pictures in the repair forum, because it’s an oddball), but - after that - I could probably take on restoration of the nicer (of the two) Holton B-flat 345. The condition is really pretty remarkable. The bottom bow is only a little bit dented (of course, I’ll make it perfect), but the top bow and bell (never refinished) are nearly perfect. If someone wanted one that was NOT “brought back from the dead”, this one would be it.
I even have some B.A.C. (Big Ass [wood] Cases), one of which could be included with it.
This would probably be a springtime delivery, so - if any interest (??), I would need someone who would not only be patient, but who would also not renege.

[djwpe]

I will be finished with these two economy King tubas right away, the 90-year-old Holton baritone needs to be finished up for the person who is waiting for it, and I have a funny Miraphone tuba to fix up and sell to a local school after that (I may show pictures in the repair forum, because it’s an oddball), but - after that - I could probably take on restoration of the nicer (of the two) Holton B-flat 345. The condition is really pretty remarkable. The bottom bow is only a little bit dented (of course, I’ll make it perfect), but the top bow and bell (never refinished) are nearly perfect. If someone wanted one that was NOT “brought back from the dead”, this one would be it.
I even have some B.A.C. (Big Ass [wood] Cases), one of which could be included with it.
This would probably be a springtime delivery, so - if any interest (??), I would need someone who would not only be patient, but who would also not renege.

As a former owner of a Bloke-restored 345 I can say that they are extraordinary instruments after Joe gets through with them.

If the 345 is your dream tuba, you can’t do better than one the Joe rebuilds.

Don (I traded mine for a vintage 911).

[bloke]

The only thing that perhaps I should have done to that one that you ended up with (thank-you, sir) was possibly to turn the bell.

For some reason (no reason...??) they engraved the bell a bit off to the side. I guess I just didn't want to change what they did...and end up leaving solder line "cuts" showing in odd places (ref. the way that most "frankentubas" look), because it was not a frankentuba, but a straight-up restoration.

[bort2.0]

Did any Holton 345's have "pretty" engravings, or anything ornate? Or only the "just words" engraving?

[dp]

Don (I traded mine for a vintage 911).

Now there's a thought. Anyone have an early BMW CSL? What am I thinking, Saint Joseph will have us all back in rehearsals in no time


For the OP, I will add this much: absolutely nothing matches the sound of a Holton. I love mine (I think it is my avitar pic here)

[bloke]

For the OP, I will add this much: absolutely nothing matches the sound of a Holton. I love mine (I think it is my avitar pic here)

As much as I harp about crediting the player with the sound, I must agree, here.

A non-screwed-with (no substitute bell nor mouthpipe, and well-assembled) Holton has more of an awesome "rock-the-universe" sound than any of the other Harley-Davidson hog tubas that have been produced since (in Europe and Asia)...

...and (though dp may disagree, or may not have A/B'ed much) B-flat more so than C (due to the non-compressed taper in the B-flat bugle, I believe).

[the elephant]

Did any Holton 345's have "pretty" engravings, or anything ornate? Or only the "just words" engraving?

Just words, not at all like the glory days of the Chicago-made horns in the teens and twenties. However, several fonts were used, with the last years being huge, block letters that looked nice. In the mid-1960s, for some time they used this attractive script. My 1964 has that. When I carefully, meticulously, painstakingly, obsessively sanded off the ruined silver plate from mine, the silver that had been packed into the engraving divots remained. I could have carefully, meticulously, painstakingly, obsessively removed all that, but I'm crazy, not stupid. And, until it eventually wears off: it looks *really* cool.

[bort2.0]

Wade, that's a gorgeous effect of the silver/brass. Thanks for the info about the engraving types, too. I think I'd only seen (or remembered) the big block lettering. Not my favorite look, but definitely fits the era.

[pjv]

This was from the bell of my old 1940's 130 sous.
I imagine they were as elaborate on the tubas as well?

[the elephant]

That is the "Chicago-era" engraving I was talking about. It was very beautiful. Here is the engraving from the 1914 Holton "Monster" Eb tuba I used to own. Sorry for the craptacular photo, but phone cameras were not nearly so good back then as the ones you get today.

[bloke]

the remarkably-large-bore-sizes-for-92-years-old Holton baritone that is being restored and sold...

[pjv]

Pride in craftsmanship.

(Why has so much of modern day capitalism excluded this oh so inspirational aspect of human expression from our daily endeavors?)

[bloke]

Pride in craftsmanship.

(Why has so much of modern day capitalism excluded this oh so inspirational aspect of human expression from our daily endeavors?)

random thoughts: and NOT meant to serve as counter-arguments nor contradictions to anyone's else posts/thoughts

I'm not so sure that it's as much about pride as it is about
> the lack of people who are interested in working with their hands (We all know what happened at Anderson Silver Plating Company, last year.)
> the lack of emphasis on attention to detail (whereby even 90% is considered "A" work in schools, yet none of us would choose to fly in a 90% - nor even 99% - airliner)
> errors are now considered to be unavoidable
> even more of instrument manufacturing being machine-done - and by more-and-more accurate machines (which, admittedly, equals more consistency)
> we've been through several "style" periods (since the 1930's) whereby "spare/lean/simple/stark" have been the rule of the day

Shires trombone engraving is elaborate...albeit not so organized and artistic as the examples above (nor other century-ago makers' examples)

One brass instrument store - that I know of - has Jinbao engrave many of the tubas they import, albeit it reminds me of the (as expressed above) the Shires engraving.

Engraving on most of the higher-priced European instruments (during the last more-than-half-century) has also been sparse...and we seem to look up to those manufacturers a great deal.

one last thought:
Even the beyond-craft and bordering-on-art (though repeated over-and-over) engraving of a century ago makes the point (yes?) that consumers (obviously, or those manufacturers would not have had that engraving done) base a much-larger-that-many-musical-instrument-consumers-will-admit-to percentage of purchase choices on visual (vs. sonic) characteristics...even the "check out this super-fat CC tuba" phenomenon.

GETTING BACK TO THE "HOLTON" TOPIC...

Though I've owned (and own) some Holton tubas, I'm not a Holtonphile, meaning I don't know all that much about them.
I'm under the impression that Wade's larger engraving pattern/style (which was/is on the bells of some of the 345 models (as well as - scaled down - on this seemingly-rare model 560, which I'm morphing to 5-valve front-action) was featured during the 1960's and perhaps into the 1970's, but - later - Holton (towards the end of model 345 production) retreated to a much smaller engraving pattern. I seem to recall that @djwpe's 345 sported the smaller pattern...speaking of which: That was yet another 345 that was found (pre-restoration) in NOT-horribly-distressed condition.

I was able to find at least one low-resolution picture that is an example of the believed-to-be-later smaller engraving pattern on model 345 tubas:

[djwpe]

@bloke is right. The one I owned had the small engraving, off center.

D2A24E8A-3562-448D-B939-2A2611121DAD.jpeg (131.4 KiB) Viewed 959 times

[pjv]

Doesn't Wessex make a pretty good knock-off on the Holton?

Either the model Grand or the Prokofiev? (Or is it the Viverna or the Dragon?)

[dp]

(Why has so much of modern day capitalism excluded this oh so inspirational aspect of human expression from our daily endeavors?)

loss of interest in genuine innovation?
market side thinking "pretty good for the price"?
supply side...hell, everyone assigning a dollar value to time?

[donn]

1) modern day Puritanism, 2) multiplicity of choices that leads buyers to spend a lot time on functional distinctions, and 3) you don't go all out to ornament something of little value.

I use the term "Puritanism" without any intention to connect it to religious ideas, it might be more rooted in a misguided idea of gender differences in esthetics - like, in a general sense, esthetics are feminized and thus invalidated as a compelling principle. I can't right off hand explain why this would happen more or less exactly at the same time that western society was becoming less overtly male dominated, but I have a hunch that may actually add up. Or maybe we have simply lost the optimism of our ancestors.

Whatever the cause, you can sure see the effects everywhere, because it's quite evident in the contrast between the richly ornamented architecture of a century ago, vs. the Spartan esthetic that seems to be all we can afford today. My city has a train station that opened in 1906, and a few years ago we spent $55M to restore it to original - after extensive butchery in the '50s and '60s. It's incredibly, grandly beautiful. For that matter, my own even older house is disfigured by the scars of window sills etc. amputated to accommodate vinyl siding. The developer boosters here would like you to think that the new stuff, rectangular box townhomes with a vestigial badge of wood somewhere on the front, is just a matter of different tastes, but that isn't really what happened - taste itself lost its place in the scheme of things, and today we're ruled by expedience.