Conquering the Pig

[Worth]

With the recent acquisition of my 4V ACB-603 Piggy, I've come to realize that I have been badly spoiled by the relative "point and shoot" accuracy of the Wisemann 900. I love the sound the Piggy produces as well as it's response, but intonation quirks are driving me a bit crazy. It does not seem to be mouthpiece dependent. Compression on all valves is excellent and they are unvented currently. I'm working alternate fingerings where i can, but there are times when a MTS kicker seems like it would sure come in handy (at last for my ability to accommodate and lip things). Of note, Eb just below the staff is way sharp while the Ab below it is spot on. The 3rd and 4th valve slides have about a 3 inch pull each to get things in the ballpark. I'm used to manipulating the 1st valve slide, but I've never had to do much 3rd valve slide manipulation before and the 2V slide is way out of reach. Also, when C below the staff is tuned the C in the staff is way sharp. I understand getting used to alternate fingerings for this C through the E above, but are these quirks normal for such a horn? If so, any suggestions from those familiar with this would really be appreciated. I realize every individual horn of the same model is a different beast unto itself but want to know if all this is normal and my inexperience might be the issue?

[bloke]

word.

[LeMark]

Never noticed that problem with the Eb before when I had my piggy for 17 years, but they are a all a bit different.

I put a 2nd valve kicker on mine to help an all too common sharp 2-4 combination because I was impressed by a similar system on the Neptune BAT. 12 years later when I bought my 601 with an identical valve block, I put in a main tuning stick to help control a Low C that was Flat. (or like you said, tuning to that note makes the C in the staff sharp)

After doing that, I'm wondering what the hell I was thinking with the complexity of the 2nd valve kicker, a main tuning slide stick is a MUCH better solution.

The only way I wouldn't do this is if your MTS is already out so far that it wouldn't offer enough pull to help the Eb.

[Casca Grossa]

What Mark said. I have an old 601 which is the second one I have ever owned. I have yet to put a kicker on it because I just don’t play it any more. It was my only horn at me time and I was doing a lot of freelance work with it. I learned to deal with the alternate fingerings but I am still considering an MTS stick at some point. I think it would help your issues quite a bit.

[LeMark]

I'll post some pics of my kicker today. Nag me if I forget

[Worth]

Thanks for the responses. Per Blokes one "Word" comment, seems I need to give the issue more attention, work and time. The idea of a MTS kicker is great and I would appreciate the picture as a go-by, but seriously I have no one in the local area with the confirmed skills to make it happen. She's coming out with me to quintet this afternoon, looking forward to it. Any other suggestions, I'm all ears.

[LeMark]

It's actually really easy. Basic soldering skills

[bloke]

I was just agreeing with things stated in that original post regarding playing characteristics of those instruments.
I don’t “hate“ those tubas… I just find tubas with sharp pitches built into their scales to be challenging to play easily.
That second space really sharp C is something that I find to be just as big a stumbling block on that model of C tuba as the very same pitch (sharp to wildly sharp) is on most F tubas.
That’s one reason that I like the Rudy Meinl 5/4 C tuba pretty well, but tend to shy away from the so-called 3/4 and 4/4, as with both of those models, the higher range - from fourth space G up - seems to tune much higher than the rest of the scale with those models. Yes, otherwise, they seem like they are pretty good tubas.
With me, personally, I find it much easier to “lip“ pitches up than down... In particular, when playing loudly, I believe I would rather lip a pitch up 15 cents than lip one down five cents...with the ideal objective to be locating instruments for personal ownership that as for/require very little favoring at all.

Thanks for the responses. Per Blokes one "Word" comment, seems I need to give the issue more attention, work and time. The idea of a MTS kicker is great and I would appreciate the picture as a go-by, but seriously I have no one in the local area with the confirmed skills to make it happen. She's coming out with me to quintet this afternoon, looking forward to it. Any other suggestions, I'm all ears.

[LeMark]

here's the pics I forgot to post. It's been a crazy week

So, basically, there is a brass tube soldered onto the back of the valves, then I have a steel core long rod (I would use brass or nickel silver if I had to do it over again) witha wrap of another brass tube. you could skip the brass wrap of the steel rod. Not sure why I did that other than just for looks

It's easy, just get the sizes that next into each other and make sure it will clear the bell when inserting it. That's going to be the tricky part on a piggy because the bell is so close to the upper branch. Might have to do some kind of threading on the upper part of the rod, insert the rod from the tuning slide side, and then attach the handle to it once the rod is in place

[Worth]

Thanks very much Mark. It totally makes sense now that this is not brain surgery. I've saved these and will use them as a reference if and when I decide to get the work done. This tuba is an interesting creature. I'm having some issues with the high range breaking up at the top of the staff and beyond, something really new to me. With my Wiseman I can pretty easily access the Meistersinger E and the F above that, although the Bydlo G# I have to admit is a stretch. I'm not sure why things lose focus up there in my hands on the Piggy. Same mouthpiece too.

[bloke]

Keep struggling with that pig, and send the Wiseman to me on permanent loan.

[tubazach07]

I would suggest having someone with a bore scope check the valve alignment. Yes the markings may line up on the backing plate but the markings could be wrong. On my Stofer/Getzen CB50 the 5th valve rotary valve markings on the down stroke are completely wrong. If I go by the markings my valve goes to far and messes with any combination using 5th valve. I was lucky enough that the 5th valve tubing is pretty straight so I am able to use a flash light and dental mirror to line it up correctly. Just a thought. Best of luck.

[Worth]

I believe that learning to conquer this horn will make me a better player overall. Thanks to all for the comments. They are much appreciated and the learning never stops. Regarding the valve alignment, I never took into consideration that the alignment markings on the back plate might not coincide with actual proper alignment. I have an inexpensive USB borescope and will do the colonoscopy, I mean boroscopy, and report back. Thank you very much for that suggestion. The Piggy leadpipe is a relatively wide open highway so I was figuring it might have to to with that. This morning's Ab at the top of the staff was a mess with all mouthpieces. Impossible to focus with an ugly growl. This is one mad Pig.

[bloke]

In the past, I have built self-centering main slide plungers on to pigs, as well as fifth valves.
One that has been resold several times features a Miraphone .835” 5th rotor.
I have no idea what condition that tuba is in today, but I did all that work.
The second space C on that pig requires an epic shove of that main slide plunger.
I believe the attract original (1970’s) to those was the unusual compact shape, the huge bore size, the easily produced loud sound, and the $1000 bucks price. I recall Pail Krzywicki touring with one with Philly and Ormandy on a USA tour.
As a driving-age teenager, and having seen one also in the Australian Youth Symphony - when that young man stayed in our home - I asked Mr. K about his. His response hinted that he wasn’t very attached to the instrument, but thought it might be fun to tour with something that was easy to stow, and that could keep his preferred instrument at home - and out of harm’s way.

[cjk]

In the past, I have built self-centering main slide plungers on to pigs, as well as fifth valves.
One that has been resold several times features a Miraphone .835” 5th rotor.
I have no idea what condition that tuba is in today, but I did all that work.
The second space C on that pig requires an epic shove of that main slide plunger.
....

Not to mention the quite flat E/Eb/D right next to those sharp C/B pitches. Push way out, then pull all the way in dead in the middle of the cash register. Annoying. The rest of that tuba lined up mostly OK.
That trigger worked perfectly for years and years with minimal maintenance. You really did a tremendous job on it.
IIRC, It also had .795" bore valves, but .835" tubing from the factory. weird.

[bloke]

Yes to the valves...
...but I really think that that sort of thing matters way less than we tend to think it does.

We wrongly always think of these things as air flow instruments, rather than resonating air column instruments...

...which is why I tend to chuckle when I see those silly bell covers. I have even seen them on saxophones...talk about a complete lack of understanding regarding what’s actually occurring…

[LeMark]

Interesting. My piggy didn't have the bad C, but It did have a flat E and Eb in the staff.

Very doable, played that horn for 17 years and was very happy with it.

I did like my 2nd valve kicker I built, really helped with 2-4 combinations. I think the reason I went that way was my main tuning slide spent most of its life 3/4 if the way out, and I didn't have much room to bring it out any more. I guess if I had thought about it I could have lengthened the slide and then added the rod.

[LeMark]

In the past, I have built self-centering main slide plungers on to pigs, as well as fifth valves.
One that has been resold several times features a Miraphone .835” 5th rotor.
I have no idea what condition that tuba is in today, but I did all that work.
The second space C on that pig requires an epic shove of that main slide plunger.
....

Not to mention the quite flat E/Eb/D right next to those sharp C/B pitches. Push way out, then pull all the way in dead in the middle of the cash register. Annoying. The rest of that tuba lined up mostly OK.
That trigger worked perfectly for years and years with minimal maintenance. You really did a tremendous job on it.
IIRC, It also had .795" bore valves, but .835" tubing from the factory. weird.

Sounds like there is something going on with your horn that isn't totally normal. I have had cerveny tubas where I had to play those notes 1-2/2-3/4, even in the staff

I have also heard that they put the 795 bore valves in there to give the horn a little resistance. Yeah, it's silly, but they are kind of air hogs as it is, if they were worse, who knows if they would even be playable

[cjk]

Sounds like there is something going on with your horn that isn't totally normal. I have had cerveny tubas where I had to play those notes 1-2/2-3/4, even in the staff

I have also heard that they put the 795 bore valves in there to give the horn a little resistance. Yeah, it's silly, but they are kind of air hogs as it is, if they were worse, who knows if they would even be playable

Not my horn anymore. I do not miss it. in the late 1990s, I transitioned to dealing with sharp 6th partial Gs instead. Another guy at the university I attended had a quite a bit newer 4v one which did not have the sharp C problem. I thought his was better than mine. Missing a valve though.

In the early 1990s at the Sewanee summer music thing, there was a guy named Daryl Johnson who had a 4v Sear branded piggy which was vastly better than any other I'd played. The open E was even very useable. It was superb.

[bloke]

I’d wager that they used .795” bore-diameter rotors, because that’s what they had when they built those instruments.