Shallow (F tuba) style Mouthpieces

[KingTuba1241X]

Riddle me this Batmen...When I play on any "solo" cup type mouthpieces like the Baer F or one of the Bloke Solo cups, I get a slightly stuffy feedback of air on lower notes where it feels like I am trying to blow air against a brick wall (upper and mid range seems ok). Both mouthpieces in reference had #1 shank bore (8.1mm) and the Baer F at (7.49mm) respectively. So the backpressure wasn't coming from the throat or backbore and must be the cup size and shape? I do not get that back pressure feedback from my "equally shallow" Schilke 69C4 or any shallow Mirafone C-3/C-4 style cups, so could it be just "too shallow" for a B flat or C buzz style and the mouthpiece makers sprinkle F tuba dust on these mouthpieces to only allow them to play clean on F tubas?

[Pauvog1]

It is really depends. Generally I find a shallower / tighter mouthpiece takes a different approach than a larger style mouthpiece. I also find F tuba takes a slightly different approach than CC.

I also like the solo better than the other models you referenced. If your looking for a more open feel, I bet you'd like the blow better with a #2 shank and possibly a deeper rim (or go with a depth extender, best of both worlds for experimenting).

If you are looking for a more efficient mp for BBb / CC, maybe try Joe's imperial mouthpiece? Same rim comments as above apply. I find that to be a great "medium" style mouthpiece. A little extra brilliance than the symphony but with a more open blow than a standard F tuba mp.

[KingTuba1241X]

It is really depends. Generally I find a shallower / tighter mouthpiece takes a different approach than a larger style mouthpiece. I also find F tuba takes a slightly different approach than CC.

I also like the solo better than the other models you referenced. If your looking for a more open feel, I bet you'd like the blow better with a #2 shank and possibly a deeper rim (or go with a depth extender, best of both worlds for experimenting).

If you are looking for a more efficient mp for BBb / CC, maybe try Joe's imperial mouthpiece? Same rim comments as above apply. I find that to be a great "medium" style mouthpiece. A little extra brilliance than the symphony but with a more open blow than a standard F tuba mp.

I don't think it's the 8.2mm shank that's going to change the back pressure feeling. It seems it's more of a cup shape and depth issues that I may not be used to.

[donn]

I do not get that back pressure feedback from my "equally shallow" Schilke 69C4 or any shallow Mirafone C-3/C-4 style cups, so could it be just "too shallow" for a B flat or C buzz style and the mouthpiece makers sprinkle F tuba dust on these mouthpieces to only allow them to play clean on F tubas?

I may be missing something there - it doesn't add up for me. Either It and equally shallow mouthpieces are too shallow for contrabass, or they aren't. I vote they aren't, given that the shallowest mouthpiece known to tuba players was apparently intended for contrabass tuba. Also, you don't present any backbore measurements, so it's unclear why you'd say the effect isn't produced by the backbore.

For me, though ... until convinced otherwise, I'm saying that none of these factors determines anything in isolation, but rather they function together. All of my mouthpieces have a bore that's plenty large to easily pass all the air that could possibly go through them while playing, and who knows what happens as the sound waves focus in there - but surely, depends on the throat and the cup around the throat, and the backbore behind it (and don't forget "the gap!")

[bloke]

I’m not sure that I would choose a cup like that to play a King B-flat tuba, but I certainly wouldn’t try to discourage someone from trying one out.

Some of the issues that you describe are why I offer three different Solo backbores and four different Solo shanks...but not all four shank sizes are offered with each backbore.
The largest backbore I offer is called Solo #2, and that one can actually be ordered with as large as a euro shank.
That shank size is not a bad fit for many of the King receivers, depending on the era. (A few decades ago - for a while – the two-piece 2341/0 tubas were built with slightly smaller receivers.)

Just today, I took an order for an Imperial cup mouthpiece combo for a new-style 2341 owner, and am also including a cup extender ring, for tonal flexibility.

[KingTuba1241X]

Also, you don't present any backbore measurements

Yes I posted the Baer at 7.49mm and the Solo #1 (8.1mm) throat bores. I think I'm just running up against the shallowness of the cup honestly, as I've tried Contrabass Tuba mouthpieces with those throat bores in the past and had no issues.

[bloke]

#2 back-bore features a larger exit bore than #1, which is why I am able to offer it in euro shank.

If I were to offer the #1 back-bore with a euro shank size, the metal at the back end of the mouthpiece would be thicker than something I would choose to offer for sale.

Did you find the Solo 1 and 2 throat size listed online?

[donn]

Yes I posted the Baer at 7.49mm and the Solo #1 (8.1mm) throat bores.

As it earlier seemed you may actually understand, backbore and throat bore are two different things. Backbore isn't very commonly presented as a mouthpiece parameter, so if you don't have that information you aren't the only one, but however obscure, it's a real factor in how a mouthpiece turns out. Bach tuba mouthpieces may have backbores "801" (most models) or "810" (24AW, 7, 18.)

Mike Finn's MF5 is a relatively shallow contrabass tuba mouthpiece that I don't think would hold anyone back on the low end. I have one, it seems pretty bright and gets hot fast, but has an interesting unique fullness to the sound, I think I'd be able to easily recognize that quality in this one among all my mouthpieces. Wide enough though that it isn't an F tuba mouthpiece, though of course there's no reason you couldn't do it if you wanted to.

[KingTuba1241X]

#2 back-bore features a larger exit bore than #1, which is why I am able to offer it in euro shank.

If I were to offer the #1 back-bore with a euro shank size, the metal at the back end of the mouthpiece would be thicker than something I would choose to offer for sale.

Did you find the Solo 1 and 2 throat size listed online?

Yes on Dave's website. I think 8.2mm on the #2 might be a little too airy especially if I had switched to the Imperial Cup. (Just my personal preference).

[KingTuba1241X]

Yes I posted the Baer at 7.49mm and the Solo #1 (8.1mm) throat bores.

As it earlier seemed you may actually understand, backbore and throat bore are two different things. Backbore isn't very commonly presented as a mouthpiece parameter, so if you don't have that information you aren't the only one, but however obscure, it's a real factor in how a mouthpiece turns out. Bach tuba mouthpieces may have backbores "801" (most models) or "810" (24AW, 7, 18.)

Yes I was describing the Throat Bore numbers earlier. I understand the back bore is a big factor too, which might/could be the F tuba mouthpiece issue and not the cup depth. Hard to tell.

[Pauvog1]

If you want a shallower / more brilliant mouthpiece, but with more bottom than your solo, the imperial mouthpiece isn't overly open at all (a notch more than the solo). Very medium, no air hog or tight rope here. It is pretty versital. That would be my pick over a c4, solo, or baer f tuba mp on a BBb King.

[KingTuba1241X]

If you want a shallower / more brilliant mouthpiece, but with more bottom than your solo, the imperial mouthpiece isn't overly open at all (a notch more than the solo). Very medium, no air hog or tight rope here. It is pretty versital. That would be my pick over a c4, solo, or baer f tuba mp on a BBb King.

I was afraid of going to a mouthpiece too deep. I just had a friend drill out the throat on my 69C4 to 8.1mm so we'll see how that goes. I think that's the sweet spot for this horn when using a mouthpiece.

[bloke]

You may like that Schilke-made TU-23 knock-off drilled out a little bit, and will not have been the first person to have done that. Miraphone themselves did it around a half century ago, with the “Rose Solo” model.
============================
The Imperial is a V-shaped cup, but too shallow to be considered any sort of “Helleberg”. That having been said, it offers some interesting (read: “good”) alternate results when combined with a tall rim or cup extender ring.

[KingTuba1241X]

You may like that Schilke-made TU-23 knock-off drilled out a little bit, and will not have been the first person to have done that. Miraphone themselves did it around a half century ago, with the “Rose Solo” model.
============================
The Imperial is a V-shaped cup, but too shallow to be considered any sort of “Helleberg”. That having been said, it offers some interesting (read: “good”) alternate results when combined with a tall rim or cup extender ring.

I had a friend out your way just drill out my Schilke to 8.1mm from 7.49mm, so we'll see what happens when it gets back. I've tried the Rose Solo, was still a little bit of an air hog for my taste. The throat bore was the only thing I didn't like about the Schilke, too tight for an already small bore horn.

[matt g]

A general statement:

Most mouthpiece manufacturers use the same blank across all models. If the cup is shallower, the backbore is necessarily longer. This could impact the impedance.

That being said, the way some multi-part mouthpieces are made, where the cup and shank are not universal across all configurations, likely has better solutions in this space (mating shallower cups to very open shanks).

[WC8KCY]

If you want a shallower / more brilliant mouthpiece, but with more bottom than your solo, the imperial mouthpiece isn't overly open at all (a notch more than the solo). Very medium, no air hog or tight rope here. It is pretty versital. That would be my pick over a c4, solo, or baer f tuba mp on a BBb King.

This has been my experience with the Imperial as well. Very medium, but so perfectly and exquisitely balanced, it handles a wide range of playing situations with ease.

[bloke]

If I manage to pull my playing prowess back - to something resembling pre-C19 economic shutdown shape - well enough to do some demo's with the for-sale silver Besson 983 tuba, likely going to play some "F-tuba" things on it (with a Solo cup with one of the Solo back-bores) and some "B-flat-tuba" things on it (probably with an Imperial mouthpiece, and possibly with a tall rim).

[JRaymo]

I used the Baer F mouthpiece for many years with my willson Eb playing mostly Brass Band music. Both 1st and 2nd Eb part at times. I was very happy with it. I now use the Sellmansberger Imperial and I like it much better. I really like it now that the 32.9 mm rims became available. I have both the standard and profundo rims. One thing that really made the biggest difference with this tuba I have to credit Joe for. He suggested a in between size shank I actually bought to fit my holton helicon but Joe suggested to try it on the willson as well. I was shocked at the improvement. I am thinking it must be like having one of those AGRs. That really opened up the low register. The F mouthpiece now is on standby.

[Doc]

If you want a shallower / more brilliant mouthpiece, but with more bottom than your solo, the imperial mouthpiece isn't overly open at all (a notch more than the solo). Very medium, no air hog or tight rope here. It is pretty versital. That would be my pick over a c4, solo, or baer f tuba mp on a BBb King.

I was afraid of going to a mouthpiece too deep. I just had a friend drill out the throat on my 69C4 to 8.1mm so we'll see how that goes. I think that's the sweet spot for this horn when using a mouthpiece.

I use the Imperial with a tall rim on my 186, and it is just right. I'm using the Imperial with standard rim on my Eb helicon, and it is not much deeper than the solo. But don't forget about extending the solo. An extender ring doesn't deepen it THAT much, but it might give you what you want (and it's cheap). I have a Solo #0 for my F tuba, but I have blown up a Solo #2euro with tall rim and extender ring to be a deep power mp for the Hagen. Really opens it up. The Solo #2 with the tall rim works fairly well on the helicon, but I like the color the Imperial adds to the sound. The point being that with the right combination of parts, you might make the Solo work. I might recommend a Symphony as a possible choice if bowl-esque qualities were desired and depth was preferred, but the Symphony is not a shallower mp as you seem to desire.

SO...

If I had to suggest a default blokepiece as one to try first on a King BBb or other American style tuba, it would be the Imperial with a tall rim or a regular rim w/ extension ring. If you already like the color the Solo provides, but you need it to be more open/free, get an extension ring to add to it and see if it does the trick. Otherwise, I think the Imperial is the way to go. If nothing else, it is a GOOD starting point.