POLL ADDED !!! - Holton BB-345 twin-spin (first actual picture on p.2)

[the elephant]

… this just about the most in tune BB-345 that I've ever played…

I hope you take some careful measurements and photos to compare to one that is not so good at a later date. I would like to see pics and numbers that might confirm your suspicion regarding the bottom line G on the cut horns versus the bottom of the staff F on the BBb horns and the diameter of the tube at the outer curve of the top bow. All that is just interesting to know. Surmise can be fun, but when numbers prove you to be correct, well, that's adult beverage fun.

[bloke]

Most all Holton 345 tubas that I've played (either length) seem to feature a right-up-to-pitch 5th partial open D/E, a sharp 6th partial F/G, and many feature a low 3rd partial F/G (which, sometimes, isn't flat, but is mistaken for flat because the SECOND partial Bb/C tends quite sharp).

This 345's tuning tendencies (again) are more like a Miraphone 186 or King 2341 (not-terribly-flat 5th partial, and other pitches hovering acceptably close on either side of the center).

I sorta wonder if the tendencies will remain as they are once the huge crunch is removed from the bottom bow.
What if (and joking...) I have to re-crunch it, and hide the crunch with the new bottom bow cap...??

Something that the BB-flat versions of the 345 tubas feature is "guts" in the sound, whereas (it just seems to me) the C versions of these - as well as of most other 6/4 C instruments) don't offer as much "guts" in the resonance (ie. more "hollow"-sounding...which only makes sense, whereby the same mouthpipe, capillary bore, and bell are mated up with a 2-feet-truncated bugle taper).

Many are fairly convinced that the Holton "copies" of Mr. Jacobs' York are actually just re-worked versions of previous Holton 6/4 models (yet with a York-looking valveset, and a smaller final bell diameter...(a larger 6/4 C instrument than the "good" CSO York).

To me, the Yamaha 6/4 (though most others didn't "vote" for it in some guy's comparison-of-several-6/4-C-tubas video) is the one York-alike that - at least, to me - really seems to be designed AS a C instrument...and it also seems to be a bit smaller than most of the rest. Additionally, the Yamaha (YCB-826S) offers intonation tendencies ("in C") very similar to those offered by this Holton BB-345.

The best of the Holton factory C 6/4 instruments that I've personally played is the one that belongs to Don Little. Its tuning gadget is pretty darn cleverly-devised, too.

IF (??) I were to ever again own a tuba of this specific style family (and I've "been though" several of them), it would - most likely - be a B-flat one, and would need to play as easily in tune as does this customer's instrument.

===========================
off-topic:
Even though it's got a couple of "it isn't finished being built" issues, I'm REALLY enjoying picking up my only-32-inches-tall COMPACT 19"-bell/smaller-bore Holton B-flat tuba, and playing on it (rehabilitating myself for some upcoming jobs - back from quite a few months of barely touching my face to tuba mouthpieces). By the time it's completed, I'm pretty sure I'll have already learned it's tendencies and "what it needs". It makes me chuckle when I rest it on its bell: The upper #4 slide (in it's "in-tune-for-low-F-pulled-out-an-inch" position) comes within only about two inches of hitting the floor...reminding me - a good bit - of this imagery:

[tubaing]

I was really glad when Joe was receptive to working on my tuba. We started by chatting about a few specific repairs and it morphed into a full restoration (no valve rebuild). Besides being a great player (I've never played another 345, so didnt know they don't all played this good), this tuba has a great deal of sentimental value to me. I've long dreamed of having this restored (and spent a lot of time drooling over the 345 pics of the Oberloh website when I was younger).

Joe's knowledge about this model has been very reassuring to me and for the most part I have told him to do what he wants because I trust his instincts (even though there are a few specific things I want that he might not do otherwise).

Joe's pricing was very fair (didnt think I would ever be able to talk my wife into letting me get a restoration like this, but here I am) and I'm very pleased with how quickly he talks about finishing this (I guess the pandemic slowdown is in my favor in this regard).

Part of me is a little worried that it wont play the same after (response/intonation) but I trust Joe will make it play really good.

Super excited for the updates.

I love that he is doing the two side by side.

Had a great stay at BlokePlace. Highly recommended.

[dp]

I was really glad when Joe was receptive to working on my tuba....

Part of me is a little worried that it wont play the same after (response/intonation) but I trust Joe will make it play really good.

tubaing: ATMO, you needn't worry about how your horn plays when you get it back. I am not aware of one of these beasts ever coming back a lesser player after being "blueprinted" Combined with addressing wear, damage, or alignment issues, you wind up with "that" sound in a horn that is built to 21st century standards of fit, form, and function. hubba hubba!

IMO you made the right move to have yours restored -versus- replacing it with something else that is "new." Nothing, absolutely nothing can match the majestic sound of a Holton. I love mine.

[bloke]

This also sounds as if it’s off topic, but I’m going to have to take a day or two - really soon - and work my way around blokeplace to knock down all of the spring weeds, so that I can get a reprieve from property maintenance for a while and concentrate on tuba-fixing.
Also, (with that bout of nearly-always-fatal bobcat fever that Covid - the very young cat - suffered), I’m also going to have to spray all around the tree lines by hand, due to all this epic rain - and the likely-to-follow epic tick plague (as ticks transfer that disease to domestic cats).

summary of this post:
Having bitten off more than we can often chew (by purchasing this place 15 years ago), it’s difficult to just “do our work” every day - which supplies us with our daily bread...
(but we to compensate for that by not really considering any days of the week as “days off”).

[dp]

I'll be restoring TWO big fat Holton BB-345 tubas soon...
> one for a customer who owns it
> one that we own - to offer for SALE

pfft

remember you sniffing about my personal Holton accolades and suggesting I was promoting it in preparation for a sale?

awesome.gif (168 KiB) Viewed 2241 times

[bloke]

I'll be restoring TWO big fat Holton BB-345 tubas soon...
> one for a customer who owns it
> one that we own - to offer for SALE

pfft

remember you sniffing about my personal Holton accolades and suggesting I was promoting it in preparation for a sale?


awesome.gif

yeah...
I enjoyed digging back at your many pfft's, during that era.

If I'm really lucky (??), the one that we have for sale will play as nicely as does the one we're straightening out for someone else.
As of now, that's an unknown. People ooh and aah over these things anyway, though, when there are far more intonation quirks than this customer's currently-beat-up instrument sports. Were I to wish to keep a lap sousaphone for myself (based on the many that I've played), so far... (though not for sale) I would pick this customer's B-flat.

fewer vs. more intonation quirks: I'm a pretty damn good tuba player, but (whether others hear it or not) I don't play quite as well when faced with a bunch of knobs and levers that must be constantly manipulated while ALSO attempting to provide a luxuriously-friendly foundation for some treble-clef-sounding solo instrument to be presented to the patrons at their best.



bloke "Are you aware that you both posted the above as well as sending it to me - in duplicate - in a private message?"

[York-aholic]

my 32-inches-tall COMPACT 19"-bell/smaller-bore Holton B-flat tuba's upper #4 slide comes within only about two inches of hitting the floor.

That fourth slide's actual function might just be "Kickstand".

[bloke]

This customer-owned 345 bottom bow is going to look a lot nicer straightened out, and with this nice new cap on it - and a guard wire on top of that.

[tubaing]

Just curious-

Do you solder on the new cap and wire only after the whole tuba is done and the bottom bow is back on or do you install it right after the bottom bow work and before reassembly?

[bloke]

Just curious-

Do you solder on the new cap and wire only after the whole tuba is done and the bottom bow is back on or do you install it right after the bottom bow work and before reassembly?

There is no reason to do it later, and only someone who is quite clumsy with their heat would loosen either the cap or wire solder joints while involved in the major assembly the instrument.

Just for what it’s worth, I am extremely pleased with the styling and size of this cap.

[bloke]

This thread is just about to reawaken.

[York-aholic]

This thread is just about to reawaken.

Awaken the beast!

[bort2.0]

Riiiiight when I start to get some 6/4 BAT BBb experience...

[bloke]

no work today...
The grandkids were here this week, and Mrs. bloke did a whole week of educational “colonial days” with them. Today was the grand finale where she took them to their family’s ancestral home - that their sixth-great grandfather built in 1798… Yes, really…but it’s nearly four hour drive (one-way), plus the hour or so looking over the place, so…

[bloke]

This bottom bow needs to have a bunch more done to it before it's ready to mount back on the instrument...
...but THE purpose of this pair of pictures (the first thing that I will have actually posted, regarding this undertaking) is to PROVE to the instrument's owner that I ACTUALLY did remove those hideous "doughy" lumps from the bottom bow (where someone tried-and-failed - sometime in the past - to repair an EPIC smashed-in flat area on the bottom).

Otherwise, I probably could have just covered up all that $h!t with the bloke-supplied American-style/brass bottom bow cap (which will be installed soon), and HIDDEN all of that horrible mess.

EDIT: AFTER these pictures were taken, it took me another hour to get this bow's bore (nearly) ROUND (rather than OVAL) with the rounding rings (shown in the pictures.) I tend to suspect that they were not perfectly round, when manufactured...and the inside curve of 345 bottom bows - on the SMALL side, approaching the small end - has always appeared very odd to me - as if "hurried up"...ie. some sort of homespun design, which probably should have been revised, but never was. Indeed, VERY LITTLE of the small sides of these bows are ever inserted into the small-side ferrule, as the small side features no real "leg".

[bloke]

… this just about the most in tune BB-345 that I've ever played…

I hope you take some careful measurements and photos to compare to one that is not so good at a later date. I would like to see pics and numbers that might confirm your suspicion regarding the bottom line G on the cut horns versus the bottom of the staff F on the BBb horns and the diameter of the tube at the outer curve of the top bow. All that is just interesting to know. Surmise can be fun, but when numbers prove you to be correct, well, that's adult beverage fun.

' already changed bottom bow dimensions drastically...and a good bit of the same will happen to the upper...

...so (if this person's LUCKY) I won't RUIN it.

These bashes and whacks were/are considerably deeper than these 2D representations seem to indicate:

[Schlitzz]

I’m just glad he’s exercising polite appearance qualities, pants, shoes, and NO cats.

[bloke]

Memorial Day was Sunday.
Today is "Non-essential Employees Monday Holluh - Day".
I’m going to see if I can get both the inner and outer caps on this bow, see if I can make some really impressive progress on the other tuba’s bottom bow, and see what else I can get done today.

[bloke]

I occasionally hear some nice feedback...
"blah-blah" was really impressed with the work that you did on "blah-blah's" messed-up bell on his "blah-blah" 6/4 tuba...(etc.)

Sure...Bells are the "money" parts of tuba rehabs, but "completely restoring a smashed bottom bow, and reinstalling BOTH the inner and outer caps - and with the bore of this huge component ending up ROUND" - is probably THE most challenging thing to do as far as "brass instrument dent removal" is concerned...and I charge considerably more to "restore" 6/4 bottom bows to their original shape than I charge to straighten out smashed 6/4 bells.

This one is now ROUND...AND the caps are very nicely reinstalled.

I did NOT YET get the solder nicely cleaned up, as I was on the phone with a relative with health issues...but all AMAZINGLY good news...and it's 9 P.M., and time to quit for the day, because the two daily mustn't-miss episodes of Hogan's Heroes are about to be on the air.

I do believe it's a good thing that most "overhaul shops" are out of business, as the typical thing was to smooth out dents (leaving things wavy, out-of-round, DISCARDING the bow caps , mounting everything cockeyed, and filing, sanding, and buffing the $h!t out of everything).

...so I do the bottom bows FIRST (to reassure myself that I actually CAN, if for no other reason).
Even after several decades of experience, this gig (and - again - it still isn't cleaned up) took several hours...and (again), I could have knocked it out in an hour, had I left it all oval 'n' $h!t, tossed the caps in the garbage, and only had run a bead around the outside.



...and I actually DID get started on the OTHER Holton BB-345 6/4 bottom bow...It's smooth but still not round...but if I was only "overhauling" it, I suppose I could call it "done", eh?