BATs

[tubanh84]

All Rudy's are comoletely handmade. Maybe there are only 3 in the US?

@Lee Stofer -- Educate us on the Rudolf Meinl 6/4 BBb, please!

This is purely a question based on nothing but speculation. Is there a difference between a Rudy 5/4 BBb and the 6/4 here? I would assume there are many 5/4 BBb Rudy's, but given the size of their 5/4, I would think a 6/4 would be very rare.

[Doc]

According to David Fedderly, RM only made 3 of those 6/4 BBb horns, and that's one of them. It's REALLY good, and I don't care for BBb tubas all that much. Were I in the market for a legit monster-sized horn and didn't mind BBb tuba this would definitely get very strong consideration from me.

That's not true. Rudi Meinl made much more of only 3 6/4 BBb. I have seen defently more than 3 here in Europe

Maybe Dave meant that there are only 3 made that are in the US.

I've played the one that is now at Baltimore Brass. It is huge, but it's much easier to play than you might expect. It's a different blow because of its size, and it would take a bit to get acclimated, but I didn't get the "massive air hog" thing (but then again, I like big bore tubas and don't ever get the "air hog" thing). I would have liked to spend more time with it. I'd like to compare it to a Miraphone 98 and 497. And a MW 197. And I'd like to have the dough to be able to travel and test them all.

Doc (recognizing that people in Hell would like to have ice water, too)

[tobysima`]

According to David Fedderly, RM only made 3 of those 6/4 BBb horns, and that's one of them. It's REALLY good, and I don't care for BBb tubas all that much. Were I in the market for a legit monster-sized horn and didn't mind BBb tuba this would definitely get very strong consideration from me.

That's not true. Rudi Meinl made much more of only 3 6/4 BBb. I have seen defently more than 3 here in Europe

Maybe Dave meant that there are only 3 made that are in the US.

I've played the one that is now at Baltimore Brass. It is huge, but it's much easier to play than you might expect. It's a different blow because of its size, and it would take a bit to get acclimated, but I didn't get the "massive air hog" thing (but then again, I like big bore tubas and don't ever get the "air hog" thing). I would have liked to spend more time with it. I'd like to compare it to a Miraphone 98 and 497. And a MW 197. And I'd like to have the dough to be able to travel and test them all.

Doc (recognizing that people in Hell would like to have ice water, too)

I haven't yet played anything over 4/4. I would love to sit down for a couple hours and toot around on a 6/4. I love the foghorn sound!

[tobysima`]

All Rudy's are comoletely handmade. Maybe there are only 3 in the US?

@Lee Stofer -- Educate us on the Rudolf Meinl 6/4 BBb, please!

It's possible. I think that most tubists here wouldn't covet it anyways.

[tobysima`]

All Rudy's are comoletely handmade. Maybe there are only 3 in the US?

@Lee Stofer -- Educate us on the Rudolf Meinl 6/4 BBb, please!

This is purely a question based on nothing but speculation. Is there a difference between a Rudy 5/4 BBb and the 6/4 here? I would assume there are many 5/4 BBb Rudy's, but given the size of their 5/4, I would think a 6/4 would be very rare.

There is. The 6/4 has a 22" bell while the 5/4 has a 20" bell. I'd assume the 6/4 is fatter too. The Rudolf Meinl website says the 5/4 is wonderful for large symphony orchestras, while the 6/4 is preferred in large orchestras for Wagner. Not sure what the difference between that is, but it seems to be more than the bell size. I don't really know either, though.

[KingTuba1241X]

All Rudy's are comoletely handmade. Maybe there are only 3 in the US?

@Lee Stofer -- Educate us on the Rudolf Meinl 6/4 BBb, please!

This is purely a question based on nothing but speculation. Is there a difference between a Rudy 5/4 BBb and the 6/4 here? I would assume there are many 5/4 BBb Rudy's, but given the size of their 5/4, I would think a 6/4 would be very rare.

There is. The 6/4 has a 22" bell while the 5/4 has a 20" bell. I'd assume the 6/4 is fatter too. The Rudolf Meinl website says the 5/4 is wonderful for large symphony orchestras, while the 6/4 is preferred in large orchestras for Wagner. Not sure what the difference between that is, but it seems to be more than the bell size. I don't really know either, though.

Imagine spending $22k JUST to play Wagner with it. Oof!

[Three Valves]

Imagine spending $22k JUST to play Wagner with it. Oof!

22K of free money, (or OPM) sure!!

[Doc]

I haven't yet played anything over 4/4. I would love to sit down for a couple hours and toot around on a 6/4. I love the foghorn sound!

The 6/4 Rudy BBb dwarfs everyone else's 6/4 BAT. Rudys are often discussed as being one size larger than their designation, and they play that way. The Rudy 6/4 BBb could easily be labeled 7/4. The Rudy 5/4 Bayreuth BBb (I somehow left this off my previous list) is not your typical 5/4 tuba. I own a 5/4 BBb tuba, and the Rudy 5/4 makes mine look 4/4 by comparison. I owned a Rudy 3/4 CC for many years (should have NEVER sold it). When I bought it, I didn't know it was a 3/4 tuba, and it certainly didn't sound like one.

[DandyZ629]

I haven't yet played anything over 4/4. I would love to sit down for a couple hours and toot around on a 6/4. I love the foghorn sound!

I owned a Rudy 3/4 CC for many years (should have NEVER sold it). When I bought it, I didn't know it was a 3/4 tuba, and it certainly didn't sound like one.

They're wonderful instruments. Pat Landolfi used one for several decades in the New Jersey Symphony and had ZERO issue being heard.

[Doc]

Regarding some of the comments above...

Some orchestras, specifically opera orchestras, would have sufficient demand for a “Wagner-specific” tuba. $22,000 doesn’t sound like a lot when the various Yorkalikes of higher quality are well over $30,000.

Amortize $22,000 over a 20+ year career and the likely compensation.

Related: good mechanics in good auto shops usually own their own tools of good quality and are fairly compensated.

[bloke]

Are any operas and orchestras allowed to perform Wagner?
My understanding is that a ban (along with Emmett's works) has been in effect.

[Doc]

...stuff about really big tubas...

For technical clarification and unnecessary minutiae...

BAT = Big Ass Tuba (or Big Assed Tuba) - a term (coined by Tony Clements?) referring to really big piston valve tubas

BART = Big Ass Rotary Tubas - refers to really big rotary valve tubas

[MN_TimTuba]

...stuff about really big tubas...

For technical clarification and unnecessary minutiae...

BAT = Big Ass Tuba (or Big Assed Tuba) - a term (coined by Tony Clements?) referring to really big piston valve tubas

BART = Big Ass Rotary Tubas - refers to really big rotary valve tubas

I miss being able to say I'm part of the BAT club.
I guess my medium-large 191 would be a MLART, then.
Tim

[matt g]

Are any operas and orchestras allowed to perform Wagner?
My understanding is that a ban (along with Emmett's works) has been in effect.

Maybe not, but possibly the demands of modern superhero and fantasy flick soundtracks (heavily influenced by Wagner) keeps the demand alive?

[iiipopes]

For everybody who has either thought or observed what they believe that "A BAT is an air hog," three questions:

1) Did you actually play it?
2) Did you play it with the same mouthpiece you use on other tubas?
3) Did you try to overblow the horn by subconscious reflex or conscious thought, "It's a bigger horn, it must take more air...."

From my experience, playing many different instruments, including a Conn 38K which due to the size of the bugle taper is arguably a 6/4 horn, a large horn cannot in and of itself take more air than a 4/4 sized horn, whatever that may be, for two reasons:

1) throat or venturi of the mouthpiece;
2) the purpose of the mouthpiece being the transition of flow theory over the embouchure to static wave theory resonating the given pitch.

No matter how large the expansion of the bugle, a person can only get so much air through a mouthpiece with a given venturi. This is a matter of physics, flow rate, and Bernoulli's principal. It may seem like it takes more, but that is usually the function of a turn in the tubing or the placement of a brace interfering with a node or antinode, the response of one or more notes, and the player pushes harder to get the same response.

Example: I used to own a Besson BBb New Standard 3-valve comp. It played great. Second ledger line CC below the staff was stuffy, and I found the place that caused it. But it was in the valve block and I couldn't, of course, change it, as I could have if it were a brace elsewhere on the horn. So I had to be careful to not push the CC any more than necessary. Likewise, I had two mouthpieces: the Wick 1 with its 8.4 mm throat, and my custom Kanstul 18 with the same cup diameter, but an 8.2 throat. Yes, the funnel cup of the Wick 1 versus the bowl cup of the 18 also figured a little bit into this. The Wick 1 was an air hog because of its larger throat, and a lesser extent the funnel. The Kanstul 18 I could play all day and support any phrasing. Likewise when I played a PT82 on a Conn 38K: basement to above the staff all day long, no breath issues as it also had the 8.2mm throat.

Larger tubas do NOT take more air. Because of the extra mass, they do need more efficient air to get the most out of them, which entails fitting the proper mouthpiece to both the horn and the player to manage the breath support, especially in cup size and geometry, and most importantly, the throat and backbore geometry.

[jonesbrass]

. . .

[matt g]

Some big horns have an oversized leadpipe which can lead to a bit more work centering pitches which then feels like you’re blowing more air because you’re working harder.

[tobysima`]

For everybody who has either thought or observed what they believe that "A BAT is an air hog," three questions:

1) Did you actually play it?
2) Did you play it with the same mouthpiece you use on other tubas?
3) Did you try to overblow the horn by subconscious reflex or conscious thought, "It's a bigger horn, it must take more air...."

From my experience, playing many different instruments, including a Conn 38K which due to the size of the bugle taper is arguably a 6/4 horn, a large horn cannot in and of itself take more air than a 4/4 sized horn, whatever that may be, for two reasons:

1) throat or venturi of the mouthpiece;
2) the purpose of the mouthpiece being the transition of flow theory over the embouchure to static wave theory resonating the given pitch.

No matter how large the expansion of the bugle, a person can only get so much air through a mouthpiece with a given venturi. This is a matter of physics, flow rate, and Bernoulli's principal. It may seem like it takes more, but that is usually the function of a turn in the tubing or the placement of a brace interfering with a node or antinode, the response of one or more notes, and the player pushes harder to get the same response.

Example: I used to own a Besson BBb New Standard 3-valve comp. It played great. Second ledger line CC below the staff was stuffy, and I found the place that caused it. But it was in the valve block and I couldn't, of course, change it, as I could have if it were a brace elsewhere on the horn. So I had to be careful to not push the CC any more than necessary. Likewise, I had two mouthpieces: the Wick 1 with its 8.4 mm throat, and my custom Kanstul 18 with the same cup diameter, but an 8.2 throat. Yes, the funnel cup of the Wick 1 versus the bowl cup of the 18 also figured a little bit into this. The Wick 1 was an air hog because of its larger throat, and a lesser extent the funnel. The Kanstul 18 I could play all day and support any phrasing. Likewise when I played a PT82 on a Conn 38K: basement to above the staff all day long, no breath issues as it also had the 8.2mm throat.

Larger tubas do NOT take more air. Because of the extra mass, they do need more efficient air to get the most out of them, which entails fitting the proper mouthpiece to both the horn and the player to manage the breath support, especially in cup size and geometry, and most importantly, the throat and backbore geometry.

I have never played anything bigger than a 4/4, but I will keep that in mind. Thank you!

[tubanh84]

For everybody who has either thought or observed what they believe that "A BAT is an air hog," three questions:

1) Did you actually play it?
2) Did you play it with the same mouthpiece you use on other tubas?
3) Did you try to overblow the horn by subconscious reflex or conscious thought, "It's a bigger horn, it must take more air...."

From my experience, playing many different instruments, including a Conn 38K which due to the size of the bugle taper is arguably a 6/4 horn, a large horn cannot in and of itself take more air than a 4/4 sized horn, whatever that may be, for two reasons:

1) throat or venturi of the mouthpiece;
2) the purpose of the mouthpiece being the transition of flow theory over the embouchure to static wave theory resonating the given pitch.

No matter how large the expansion of the bugle, a person can only get so much air through a mouthpiece with a given venturi. This is a matter of physics, flow rate, and Bernoulli's principal. It may seem like it takes more, but that is usually the function of a turn in the tubing or the placement of a brace interfering with a node or antinode, the response of one or more notes, and the player pushes harder to get the same response.

Example: I used to own a Besson BBb New Standard 3-valve comp. It played great. Second ledger line CC below the staff was stuffy, and I found the place that caused it. But it was in the valve block and I couldn't, of course, change it, as I could have if it were a brace elsewhere on the horn. So I had to be careful to not push the CC any more than necessary. Likewise, I had two mouthpieces: the Wick 1 with its 8.4 mm throat, and my custom Kanstul 18 with the same cup diameter, but an 8.2 throat. Yes, the funnel cup of the Wick 1 versus the bowl cup of the 18 also figured a little bit into this. The Wick 1 was an air hog because of its larger throat, and a lesser extent the funnel. The Kanstul 18 I could play all day and support any phrasing. Likewise when I played a PT82 on a Conn 38K: basement to above the staff all day long, no breath issues as it also had the 8.2mm throat.

Larger tubas do NOT take more air. Because of the extra mass, they do need more efficient air to get the most out of them, which entails fitting the proper mouthpiece to both the horn and the player to manage the breath support, especially in cup size and geometry, and most importantly, the throat and backbore geometry.

I played a Rudy 5/4 CC for a couple years. Played a PT6 after that. Had both for a while. The Rudy took significantly more air. After I had played the PT6 for a couple months and went back to the Rudy it was very noticeable.

1. yes
2. yes
3. no

[LargeTuba]

They only made three? Some guy who posted a couple of YouTube videos owns a 5 valved one, and the one on Baltimore Brass is 4 valved.

I know the guy you're talking about and I suspect that it is a Rudy 5/4.


Photo of the alleged Rudy 6/4

I apologize I couldn't get better screenshots of the 21-25j and a Rudy 5/4.
I think they are a similar size.

Both the 6/4 and 5/4 compared to similarly-sized instruments.

I could be wrong, I know camera angles and lenses make comparisons difficult, but I can only imagine The Rudolf probably has its own gravitational field.

I'm getting a 25j in the next couple of weeks to hopefully buy and sell, so I should know a little better by then.