Holton 345 Redux

[the elephant]

Yeah, I know about the Allied pipes as that is all I have ever used. I have just removed the last of the pitch. I clean them out in vinegar to get the last bit out. It works very well, but slowly, so I have it in for about an hour and a half while I eat some lunch.

I tapped on that MF-er for about an hour with my lightest hammers to flatten all the small ripples (about four that you can barely feel, anyway) and two small kinks where there must have been a small air pocket or soft(er) bit in the pitch. The leadpipe has been sitting here in its uopened bubble wrap sleeve for about four years now, so perhaps some settling happened? When storing these long-term are you supposed to lay them out verticle or horizontal?

This one was much more difficult (and stressful, since at the moment I can't afford another if I mess this one up) but the actual bending time was about 15 minutes. The old one was a simple, flat curve. This one has three arcs to consider. The two new ones were to account for the lower position of the 1st valve port and to improve on where the mouthpiece sits in space as I hold the horn. This one will give me better vision and a better angle to the rim for my overbite. The old one looked great but was a bit too "flat" for me. The new one angles up just a bit (5º or so?).

Are you saying that the Allied pipe is SMALLER in the first six inches than the 45SLP? I was trying to neck this sucker down a bit, with a very slow taper for about five inches, then a bit faster for about two (to get it back to the stock size).

The two small dents/kinks are nearly gone now, so once the pipe is clean I will go after them with the old dent balls. In the end it should be a servicable pipe, if not exactly "faktree"…

[bloke]

I can go measure for you on a 5450, but I'm thinking that the small end of 45SL-P "family" of mouthpipe tubes is roughly 17/32" (or possibly a bit smaller), and the large end is roughly 23/32" (or possibly a bit larger).

I suspect the taper is "interpolated" for use on longer tubas where longer 'pipes are required.

If one uses the smallest possible usable portion of that allied 'pipe, that bore size is quite small, yes?

[the elephant]

Yes, and that was what I did. The horn has a huge sound, so I do not think it will be affected in a negative way, and perhaps the response in the low register will be a bit quicker. I measured the old pipe and ended up using a section that was nearly three inches farther toward the small end. Everything is now about a half mm smaller.

I had forgotten about the burning out of the pitch remnants. I checked my notes from 2011 (when I last made a leadpipe) and saw that this was what I had done back then, and it worked quite well, so THANKS for the reminder! (I supposed I need to re-read all my notes from back then. Maybe I would learn something from myself. D'OH!)

I ran about 30 dent balls up into the pipe one at a time, re-rounding several places and removing my two kinks. It is in the vinegar again, this time to clean the actual surface of the brass inside the pipe rather than putting a nice shine on my pitch coating. Heh, heh, heh…

I will solder on some of the hardware in a little while. I may have to use a Dillon AGR as it seems to be my only available receiver right now. (WTF did that other one get to…???) I have the needed (and recommended) shim so that it fits well, but I wanted to use a Miraphone one. So we'll see about that.

Back to salt mines…

[bloke]

...so - if you (at least) anneal the smallest-bore three to five inches - that leaves you (once securely soldered to the tuba's bell) with the easier-than-otherwise option of pulling a few dent balls through the small end (to enlarge that end of the 'pipe) if you decided to do so later on.

I am not a fan of "paper towel tube" (ex: 2165) mouthpipe tubes (probably, I would consider myself a "foe"), but - having experimented with using that small-end bore of that allied 'pipe - it felt a bit small (at least, for me - for a 3/4" bore instrument)...and I'm the guy who views the (quite small indeed) small end of the B&S "Symphonie" F tuba mouthpipe tube as "ideal" (for that particular instrument, whereby the first circuit encountered is only a 17mm bore size circuit).

[the elephant]

After having played this mouthpipe just now I would tend to agree. I will sometime in the future purchase another one from Allied and cut it at the same points the old one was.

I was pleased with the overall outcome, but not tickeled. Some things are much better, like unbelieveably so. Most things are about the same, with a few probles becoming a bit more pronounced. (Perhaps I misremember how this tuba played; it has been over three years since it has made a sound.)

The things that are better are wonderful. However, Eb just below the staff was sharp and is a little more now. Bottom line G is abot the same. Other than that and it is nearly the same horn, with fewer slide pulls and alternates. The low register is better, too. I am in tune with the main out an inch or so. The Cs all line up now.

[bloke]

Were I given a choice, I would certainly pick a slightly sharp E-flat over an usably-flat (ref: Hb) one...(That range is somewhat difficult to lip up.)

I have encountered quite a few 186 C tubas with that same (sharp on E-flat) characteristic. Alternate 1-5 is usually too low...

‘ sounds like you have a really fine tuba, there!

[the elephant]

BREAKING NEWS

Hey, hey, hey! After a couple of hours doing drone pitch drills and then playing simple, mostly diatonic vocalises (again, against drones) I have determined that I CAN LENGTHEN THE MTS BY A FULL INCH! This makes me *very* happy.

I hate main slide legs that have less than 4" of pull. I think these can now be about that long. I was worried about this. For years this tuba has played flat enough that I had to play whole concerts with the MTS pushed in all the way. I *hated* being in that situation.

After a lot of math and general head-scratching, I determined that the minimum length leadpipe needed to put my mouthpiece on my face would make the horn more than 20¢ flat under perfect conditions. I had to completely re-do my MTS, and that led to a huge expense for a new 5th valve and all the needed parts. All this back-peddling paid off, though, as I ended up recovering all the clipped-off length from my modifications.

Something in my bugle work brought the pitch back up, too. (Perhaps that massive "Rusk leak" was causing overall flatness?) Now I can lengthen the main slide legs to where they were in 2006. The way he cut this tuba left it with a short main slide and a short, overly-fast tapered leadpipe. My work on it over the years caused me to have to shorten the MTS further. Lengthening it will be something that makes me very happy.

I won't be doing this anytime soon, though, as I want to use the horn at work in May and I have to complete it first. I can run with the MTS out this far (2") forever if I want, but that leaves little overlapped tubing holding it in place.

In other news, I have to remount the leadpipe soon. Esto no está bien. I did not line it up as well as I had hoped, so all the hardware needs to be moved just a bit. I ran with it the way it is because I wanted to play the horn for a while. Once that is done and I have a water key on my MTS I will start work on the 5th valve.

In other other news, my cats like the tuba and will come in and listen for an hour or so when I practice. I have not played much in the past year, so they had not heard the tuba for some time. All three came to check out my bedroom recital of tuning exercises and simple etudes against drone pitches.

[kingrob76]

As someone whose horn doesn't have enough MTS and I constantly blow it out, I'm very curious about the process of lengthening a MTS. I'm ok with it sticking out a bit too far when it's all the way in, but, I need more real estate.

[the elephant]

Does anyone have a set of the old Conn-Selmer 5th valve locking collars and removable leadpipe parts used on the 5xJ series of CC tubas that they would sell to me? (Or trade?)

I need the three parts of the .750" locking collar for the 5th valve. (The matching set for the leadpipe is .687", which I do not need.) I also need the three-part bell brace as well as the three-part receiver brace, if you happen to have these sitting around.

Also, I would really like to get my hands on a used drawplate for slide tubes and leadpipes (up to 1.000" OD, if possible, but the normal .750" would be fine).

Bueller?

[Tubajug]

I'm sure you're aware, but Buckeye Brass has manufactured new ones.

[the elephant]

Yeah, but are Rob's new ones interchangeable with his old Conn-Selmer design? I don't want to have to remove what I have (and that I paid for years ago) just to get two new ones; I am hoping that I can use the one I already have.

Also, we are still low on our total household income by 65% due to COVID cutbacks, so I couldn't really afford one (much less more than one) back when he first offered them and *really* would have a hard time getting them now. N/OS or used are about all I can afford to buy or trade for right now.

Thanks, though, Jordan. I had considered contacting him several times recently and have decided to look for old stuff.

[Tubajug]

Is this for making several different leadpipes that you can switch out?

[the elephant]

Yep. I don't know much about small changes to leadpipes and hope to do some learning. I'm not looking for anything in particular. I just want to experiment for personal amusement. (It's not any sort of priority.)

[the elephant]

Well, my last order to Miraphone was shipped on April 7th and it is still not here on May 14th. It took three weeks to get across the Atlantic, so it definitely went by container ship this time, rather than air. as usual. US Customs has had it since April 28. It is still (still, still, still…) "Inbound into Customs". The USPS has been aggressively unhelpful. US Customs has likewise been of no use.

I am going to file a claim at the end of May. I will give them two more weeks for Customs to clear it and get it into the USPS system. I have purchased items from Germany all through the pandemic and none took more than two weeks. This one is going on five.

Hmm…

[Yorkboy]

Well, my last order to Miraphone was shipped on April 7th and it is still not here on May 14th. It took three weeks to get across the Atlantic, so it definitely went by container ship this time, rather than air. as usual. US Customs has had it since April 28. It is still (still, still, still…) "Inbound into Customs". The USPS has been aggressively unhelpful. US Customs has likewise been of no use.

I am going to file a claim at the end of May. I will give them two more weeks for Customs to clear it and get it into the USPS system. I have purchased items from Germany all through the pandemic and none took more than two weeks. This one is going on five.

Hmm…

There seems to be some unusual delays lately. I finally received some stuff from Germany about 2 weeks ago, which for some inexplicable reason spent a week in Paris.

[The Big Ben]

There seems to be some unusual delays lately. I finally received some stuff from Germany about 2 weeks ago, which for some inexplicable reason spent a week in Paris.

Count Basie: "April in Paris"

https://youtu.be/wCmcoZktZG4

[the elephant]

I finally received some stuff from Germany about 2 weeks ago, which for some inexplicable reason spent a week in Paris.

I hope you had April in Paris blaring away when you opened the box…

[the elephant]

There seems to be some unusual delays lately. I finally received some stuff from Germany about 2 weeks ago, which for some inexplicable reason spent a week in Paris.

Count Basie: "April in Paris"

https://youtu.be/wCmcoZktZG4

RATS! I posted before I read that we had the same idea. YOU WIN!

[the elephant]

WARNING: HIGH JIBBER-JABBER CONTENT DEVOID OF PHOTOS. You have been warned…
___________________________________________

Tonight I spent two hours with the freshly rebuilt 186 and the Holton (sill sans 5th valve and with a wicked buzz in the bell rim — DANG IT!). My ears tell me that the two horns are *very* close in intonation quirks and tendencies. The Holton is really very good and steerable (when needed) with only the bottom line G being uselessly flat. (It got worse, but everything else improved noticeably.) I can play that tuba using 3rd for all 12 combos from E below the staff, and 12 from bottom space A on up. If I keep the 1st slide set for 4th line F the D below it plays in tune 13, but the slide circuit is now short enough that 1st all the way in works equally well with better response, so I can hammer it with a slide push or hit it with a tiny facial adjustment and the alternate. With 1st in that same location, the bottom line G is dead on using 13. Low G works well with the same 1st setting, played 13, and the whole 23 series has cleaned up nicely. The open octaves are much closer, with the pedal being a bit high and the other three matching nicely. Response from top-line A on up is much improved. The intonation of the B/F# 2nd series is GREATLY improved. I can nail the snot out of that dang John Williams fanfare opening now.

The 186 is not as good as my Jin Bao, still, but it was always quite good. (The 410 plays like a really good 188, with next to no alternates or slide jockeying needed. It is why I still own that horn.) There were a few leaks in the valves that had to be fixed, and that took me a while to master. I bought five new rotors for this tuba, and the difference is palpable. With my new 5th valve I can bust out on that short, percussive, LOUD low F at the top of the Candide overture. (I can't wait to get the 5th on the Holton to test this one, super-irritating weakness of that tuba.) Low F on this Mirafone was weak as it had no 5th valve when I bought it and required a long pull and 14 to get it in tune, and that was not stable enough to nail that one Berstein note I described. I can punch the F in the nose now.

This is very gratifying, to be sure.

The bottom line G was always a little low on this horn, but fairly easy to lip up. (So it was not very low at all; it just wasn't dead on.) I had hoped that fixing some of the leaks would correct this. It did not. It is just the same, but the second space C used to be sharp and now it is not. Fourth line F was likewise sharp, with the D below it being typical the "186 flat 5th partial" low, but that F pulled down very nicely, with E and Eb using their "factree" fingerings. The D needs 13 with a short pull or 1 with the slide in all the way.

The two horns match well, so brain farts ought to be minimized now, thankfully. The 188 leadpipe seems to have taken a bit of the edge (hyper-clarity?) off the tone at loud dynamics, and allows me to play loudly in the low register without that terrible backup feeling these horns can get. It is not "sweet" at all but like a very focused 188; there is both weight and color. It seems to carry better than the 188 but does not break up like a lot of these older 186s when I play stuff like Fountains or the "Montagues and Capulets" excerpts.

I still need to add some braces. (I am nothing if not lazy.) Soldering messes still need to be pimped out. I want to maybe adjust how the 5th slide circuit sits within the valve section; one of the rear valve caps comes *really* close to the 5th slide tube, and if you remove it carelessly it can get hung up and not come off the horn. I also want to adjust the location of the 5th lever in relation to the location of the post of the thumb ring. I have to press too far and the ring hits a thumb joint, making a full stroke a sometimes failure. (Alternatively, I could grow up and get used to it.)

After this scrubbing, I got all the smoke and flux smell out of the slides and valves, and all the remaining buffing dirt or lapping compound is gone, too. (It always takes me a couple of cleanings to get that nasty stuff 100% out of the valve joints.) All the slides pull very nicely but are not loose or leaky, with 1st having a really nice action.

I *finally* used up my last quart of "low odor" lamp oil, which made the whole house stink for days at a time. I started using "odorless" and my life is so much better. I bet I even win the lottery because of this switch. (That's a big negatory, good buddy.) I am using 3inONE on the spindles of the Miraphone's new valves, and this is too thick, so the lamp oil gets mixed into the stuff 50-50 until they break in fully. Slide grease was SuperLube, but that stuff is sort of nasty, so I am back with the lanolin mixtures, starting with the Schilke stuff, and thickening it up a little with more lanolin. I am using Marvel Mystery Oil on my 1st slide.

I have the SuperLube and some of that nice Yamaha synthetic stuff on the Holton. I will likely switch it to the same stuff I have on the Miraphone, but I have to try the lamp oil on those pistons. In the past, they did not like that stuff, but they are very clean now, so I will give it a try.

None of these three products are food-grade, kid-friendly, or nontoxic, but I promise I won't die of petroleum distillate ingestion. I have used these specific products since about 1980 and I have managed to not pick up any cancers or brain activity degradation in that time.

Ein Prosit!

[bloke]

I sincerely hope you find that one of those detachable braces just needs a bit of tightening, and that you don't need to chase down some hollow space in some solder joint...ie. I hope for a quick/easy remedy for you.

My Holton project picked up a buzz, but I found the occurrence was the upper #4 slide's steel stop rod vibrating sympathetically on A (and LOL...the thing is the right length to vibrate with that pitch, so "duh"...and it was vibrating against the pass-through post, so I just added a coating of STP, and - later - will drill out the pass-through post's hole larger.), so an easy fix. I suspect there is a REASON why Bach and other makers made these stop rods out of SOFTER (less stiff) metals, because (possibly...??) those stop rods are less likely to pick-up/react-to a sympathetic vibration...