Besson Eb compensators...

[GC]

BBb and Eb bass parts are written in treble clef for the great majority of British-style brass band music. There are a few pieces that include bass clef parts. It's done this way to allow everyone to use trumpet fingerings for all parts except bass trombone (treble clef slide position equivalents for the other trombone parts). If you know trumpet fingerings, it's a snap. If not, a good beginner's & intermediate trumpet method can get you grounded in TC fingerings.

[ole_irgens]

Yes, all parts for brass band are transposed, and both the Eb and the Bb tuba play their parts in treble clef notation. I think the part for the bass trombone is in bass clef/concert pitch, but that is the only exception.

I do not have access to the tuba right now, but based on a quick google search I would guess 8-9 kgs.

[marccromme]

Thanks so much, Ole! Is it correct that BBb and Eb tuba parts are written in Treble clef for brass band ? Ugh...

Yes, only instrument playing non transposed in brass band is the bass bone. Most players do not even know that they are playing transposed.

But you learn it fast, its no big hassle.

[GC]

If my understanding is correct, the reason Brit Brass Banned bass bone parts are in bass clef is that early British bass trombones were straight horns in G or F (no trigger), and rather than write 2 transposed parts, arrangers just left their parts in BC.

[2nd tenor]

If my understanding is correct, the reason Brit Brass Banned bass bone parts are in bass clef is that early British bass trombones were straight horns in G or F (no trigger), and rather than write 2 transposed parts, arrangers just left their parts in BC.

As a British Brass Band player I’ve not come across straight F trombones but I have come across many old G trombones and I believe that they were the standard bass trombone at one point. To get their lower notes the G trombones have a long slide, say 9” longer than a Bb Trombone, and it is not possible to play them unaided so a pivoting extension handle was added to the slide. IIRC lower pitches (than G) were also tried but were increasingly unwieldy.

Thanks so much, Ole! Is it correct that BBb and Eb tuba parts are written in Treble clef for brass band ? Ugh...

And... Do you happen to know what your Besson Eb weighs?...

The U.K. tradition was that no one owned their own instrument (no one could afford too and they were Band property) and that players could and would be moved around the Band as needed to fill a vacancy. To make that possible all parts, except the Bass Trombone, were written in transposed treble clef and still are. The system obviously works very well for us, but yes it is a ‘fix’.

IIRC the Besson Sovereign that my Band lend me is 19lb - I added its details on another of my posts yesterday. The earlier Imperials have a reputation for weighing more and for being more robust. IMHO the Sovereign sounds slightly better than the Imperials, but for my own use I’d pick a small bell Imperial.

[2nd tenor]

If you were to eventually decide that you're really looking for an honest-to-goodness authentic British brass band compensating E-flat tuba, (as many of the ORIGINAL 15" bell instruments (which I consider to be THE authentic ones) are either beat up, feature worn valves, feature both of those things, are "high pitch", or are ALL THREE of those things...
The Yamaha YEB-321 15" BELL (which can be bought from Yamaha...though the back-order is typically several months) is an accurate copy of a Besson/B&H 15" bell, and (I believe this to be true) should fit into the bottom bow of most of the Besson and Besson-like compensating E-flat tubas.

For MOST tuba playing, there is no easier tuba to play than a GOOD compensating E-flat.
For THAT reason, I've steered several low brass instructors at universities (trombonists, who found they were expected to teach the tuba students) towards compensating E-flat tubas. The learning curve is not-very-curved, and they soon view themselves (based on their success with these) as "quite fine *tuba-ists". They do SEEM to be that...as long as they stick with their compensating E-flats.

I once asked a very able Tuba player - a Salvationist who plays one of their better wind ensembles - with which was the better instrument: a BBb or a EEb. He replied that the EEb was his clear preference and that he had a four octave range on his four valve EEb. He thought the BBb to be on the loud and tubby side and the EEb to be more sonorous and with a wider dynamic range, of course there are variations but as a rule of thumb I’ve found that to be correct. In contrast an able BBb player that I know can pick up transposed treble clef Brass Band music written for an Eb Bass and usefully play it on his BBb - but he’s exceptional.

Looking at the Tubas that are popular with professional U.K. Orchestral players the ones that have come to my attention are four compensating valve EEb’s. Of course what those guys want from a Tuba might be different from what regular BBb players are looking for, but it’s an angle worth knowing about.

As I understand it three valve Eb’s were once quite popular in the USA but got displaced by three valve BBb’s. I can’t recall why that happened but I guess that with very capable chops a simple three valve BBb can still cover enough of the top of the stave and further below the stave than a three valve Eb. Here a player would never be asked to play beyond the Eb or Bb above the stave, but maybe more/different is expected and delivered in the US? Makes me wonder though - perhaps US School Band Directors had the same question - if your budget is limited and your upper range reasonable (on a BBb mine extends to that fist Bb above the stave) then is your best general purpose Tuba a non-comp three valve BBb?

[LeMark]

I suspect one of the main reasons why BBb tuba became standard over here is because you can teach a class of trumpets, tubas and euphoniums and they are all fingering the fingering the same valve combination for each concert pitch. It makes teaching a beginning class much simpler

[bloke]

Pre-WWII SMALL American E-flat tubas tend to sound honky (unless played by really accomplished/sensitive players),
and pre-WWII LARGE American E-flat tubas tend to offer a player myriad dubious intonation characteristics.

[2nd tenor]

Pre-WWII SMALL American E-flat tubas tend to sound honky (unless played by really accomplished/sensitive players),
and pre-WWII LARGE American E-flat tubas tend to offer a player myriad dubious intonation characteristics.

I seem to be diverting the thread and hope that that’s OK - no doubt it will get back on track soon anyway.

I’m surprised at what you say of those instruments, it just doesn’t match my experience of the U.K. built instruments I’ve played and am puzzled at why the USA instruments would be different. As a youth I played a ‘hand me down’ Besson prototype 3 non-comp valve Tuba that even in my hands sounded good - I’ve always wondered what happened to that instrument and have wished that I could somehow get it back.

Thus US guy on his really old made in Austria Eb sounds OK to me, well allowing for the fact that he’s really a Trombone player:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uy26H7oMGZg
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9Gf382mMXyw

I suspect one of the main reasons why BBb tuba became standard over here is because you can teach a class of trumpets, tubas and euphoniums and they are all fingering the fingering the same valve combination for each concert pitch. It makes teaching a beginning class much simpler

That seems logical to me but is trumpet music written in transposed Treble Clef or concert pitch - scope for some confusion there. Euphoniums, Basses and Trombones all use Bass Clef in the USA, just different parts of the stave and many ledger lines.

[GC]

Don't forget that almost all US band arrangements/compositions include bass and treble clef euphonium/baritone parts because of trumpet players who switched but haven't learned bass clef fingerings.

[donn]

If we're getting into what happened to the Eb tuba, it's probably worth noting that it seems to have disappeared from John Phillip Sousa's band pretty early - possibly before the turn of the century. He was a big name in the US, and it's easy to imagine there was some direct influence, but more important I think was his role in the concept of the band as a form, which naturally required a big BBb bass section. The late 19th century American band also discovered woodwinds, which may have something to do with the different direction we took, compared to England.

I play(ed) in a much smaller band, and for while towards the end I was playing a big Eb, a big change after a couple years on a big bell front Holton but it had its advantages in smaller settings. If we revive, I'm looking forward to going back to BBb - the band is small enough that the Eb probably fit into the sound better in a way, but of course that contrabass bottom wasn't there - sure I can play the notes, but can't make them sound like that.

[iiipopes]

I see a lot of Besson Eb compensating tubas around. They seem to be widely used in the UK and maybe Europe in general. Some are Sovereigns and are a bit pricey and others are Imperial are quite a bit less so. (And maybe there are others.) Most of the ones I see are 3+1 compensators. Bell range from 15" to 19," I think. And some were made by Boosey & Hawkes.

What is the story on these?... Thanks!

Since everyone posted on what to do now, I will try to answer the question. Boosey's employee Blaikley invented the compensating action in 1874. The Eb compensator has been a staple of British Brass Bands and UK Military Bands ever since. When Besson and Boosey & Hawkes merged in 1930, the Besson "enharmonic" system was discontinued, and the horns manufactured with the Blaikley system were marketed under both the Besson name (primarily for brass bands) and the Boosey name (primarily to military bands). They're the same horns, especially when they were made in the old Edgeware Road factory on the same assembly line.

With the introduction of the Besson Sovereign line in 1974, the Eb's went from the 15-inch bell to the 19-inch bell, and for a few years were made along side what the Besson side had branded the "New Standard," and what the Boosey side had branded the "Imperial."

After some teething issues from the bugles not necessarily having been properly engineered to work with the larger bell, the Sovereign line became the standard and the others were discontinued.

And, of course, in recent history (by comparison) Besson went through bankruptcy (called receivership in the UK), and has been bought and sold a few times since. The company is now owned by the Buffet-Crampon group, which is ironic since the origin of the Besson company was with Gustave Besson in Paris. Besson left Paris in 1858 over disagreements with Adolphe Sax and moved to London, retaining some French manufacturing while setting up shop primarily in London.

So everything old is new again. Of course, in the meantime, as with the expiration of all patents, many companies have produced either clones or "better" versions of the compensating instruments. Some are good, others are not.

Side note: due to the weight, only the brass bands use the BBb instruments. Military and other bands use the Eb compensator as their primary bass instrument.

And to quote Paul Harvey, now you know the rest of the story.