"CSO" (Philly) York, and Torchy apparently contradicting some stories...

[bloke]

http://www.chisham.com/tips/bbs/jun2003 ... 37810.html

EDITED: title of this thread

[windshieldbug]

[York-aholic]

Yeah, I read the transcription of that interview (all of the many interviews she did were quite interesting) a few years ago. I meant to bring it up but…well…forgot.

Those interviews really are good reading.

[Three Valves]

A history of “fake news?”

[brianf]

This was a story that Arnold Jacobs always said.

I have put a video about the York Tuba on my webpage, take a look at https://www.windsongpress.com/25-years-york-tuba/ around 3:50

[bloke]

The story about Ormandy not liking the fact that it attracted too much attention with (very large size combined with near-new satin-finish glimmer) makes more sense (and is more believable) to me, because that goes right along with how so many "music" directors think. Many of them (thankfully) DO know the scores, but (with so many of them...and - often - the more "successful" ones) the show-biz and all-about-me aspects overshadow the musical aspects. ...and I can COMPLETELY imagine some patron at some cocktail party saying to Mr. Ormandy, "Wow...That big silver tuba - over there by the trombones - is really something, isn't it?"...and (again: with the all-about-me mentality that music directors nurse) such a remark getting under the skin of Mr. Ormandy.
Research indicates that those two York instruments (including the one that Donatelli owned and sold to Mr. Jacobs) were manufactured just prior to the beginning of Ormandy's tenure with the Philadelphia Orchestra.
Further, the Torchinsky story makes more sense (to me) because I just can't imagine someone selling a tuba to a student and admitting "I can't play this tuba, because I'm too fat", and - further - I can understand/embrace/readily-believe a reluctance to admit (particularly when selling something to someone else) that the reason it was being sold is because their boss didn't like it. Finally, Mr. Donatelli appears to have been pie-faced and stocky, but I've seen far-FAR more obese men manage to get the short-mouthpiped copies of this instrument up to their own mouths with no problem whatsoever...and this picture indicates that it was not-at-all a problem for Mr. Donatelli:


As far as music director "the appearance of things onstage" particularity/peculiarities are concerned: As just ONE example, I've had one music director that had the personnel manager go around the stage (five minutes before the tuning note) to see if everyone had their shoes shined properly.

=================================
SIDEBAR:
Just now (doing a quick bit of fact-checking), I discovered that my bought-in-1978-at-a-flea-marker-for-$25 made-into-a-helicon-with-a-19"-bell-and-sold-years-ago Eb "Pioneer" sousaphone (just as I had suspected) was INDEED a York stencil... (It was different from the typical York E-flat instruments, as the bore was more like 11/16" rather than the smaller closer-to 21/32" typical York-brand bore size. Something that made me chuckle (when finding that out) was that (as I had painted an orange-and-while swirl in the bell interior and stenciled - per Wile E. Coyote - "ACME" at the top in black lettering) that ACTUALLY, "Acme" was yet ANOTHER legitimate York stencil brand.

SIDEBAR II
My personal encounter with Ormandy...(??)
During the Krzywicki era - when Ormandy/Philly were on tour in the mid-1970's, I parked on the Mississippi River bluff (on the cobblestones - no charge) to go hear them perform. Walking up the River bluff on Poplar Avenue (Memphis) I finally reached the back corner of the music hall (Ellis Auditorium). At that very moment, Mr. Ormandy stepped out of a cab - wearing his tails, and tripped over the (oddly-configured) very old-style double curb. I caught him in my arms, and prevented him from falling. He looked at me as if it was my fault , and rushed on in the stage door without uttering a word. (fwiw, He was a remarkably short man, and weighed very little.)
Of (possibly) more interest, Krzywicki was touring with a Cerveny "piggy", which was "the newest thing" - at that particular point in time.

[Stryk]

$175 back then is now about $2800 - I suspect if that horn were made today, it would cost 10 times that. He got a steal!

[brianf]

Stokowski conducted the Philadelphia Orchestra until 1938 then Ormandy (who was the assistant conductor) took over. Jacobs bought the York from Donatelli sometime around 1933 during the Stokowski era - the horn was made a few years earlier. At that time Torchinsky was a student of Jacobs and maybe starting with Bell. He really was not part of the scene until he joined the Philadelphia orchestra in 1949. The picture of Donatelli appears to be with a Donatelli Conn, not a bad horn!

All of this gets into who has the right story, Jacobs who bought the York or Torchinsky who was not really part of the scene in 1933. Yes Ormandy had it out for Donatelli but in 1933 it was Stokowski's orchestra.

[DandyZ629]

Ormandy was a frequent guest conductor in Philadelphia in the early '30s. He was Music Director in Minneapolis from '31-'36, and produced some really wonderful recordings then, BTW. Ormandy having more sway than Leopold Stokowski in Philadelphia, is odd to me, since they were co-conductors from '36-'38. Especially since Stokowski wanted an instrument like that to begin with. From looking through "Song and Wind" Mr. Jacobs bought the York tuba from Mr. Donatelli in 1933. So there's definitely a lot of things floating around. Back down the rabbit-hole, I go...

[bloke]

Online sources state that the serial number of the first one built (based on other York instruments with known manufacturing dates and known serial numbers) indicates that it wasn't even built until 1933.

If Ormandy (as assistant) had little say-so before the late 1930's, then why would someone dump an instrument that was weeks or months old, when the music director was perfectly happy with it? Again, the photograph indicates no morbid obesity/inability-to-reach-the-mouthpiece issues...Mr. Donatelli - obviously - was no slob (per what is hinted at in the video-recorded portrayal of facts).

When something isn't documented, I tend to believe a version of a story that tends to make much more sense. I'm one of those people who frustrate (and who are marginalized and ridiculed by) "media" and "academia", because I don't necessarily buy into narratives, just because someone with influence/celebrity/certification/published papers says them - and says them in authoritative ways.

Being a skeptic, can you just imagine how much trouble I would have been in during the 15th century (ie. trouble with the church et al...??)...' way more than even Galileo.

[Three Valves]

Leopold?? It’s Leopold!!

https://youtu.be/gt1V61SPI_w

[lost]

If you asked me how I got my instrument in college, I would give you a story from my perspective. Not sure how many details would be correct this far removed. I'm 42 and that would be almost 25 years ago. I mean I have memories but it was a long time ago.

I'm sure if you asked other people how I got my instrument they would have a different story.

And also both stories can be true. To save face, maybe the story told to the buyer was not the whole story.

Everyone can still get a trophy...

[bloke]

this:

If you asked me how I got my instrument in college, I would give you a story from my perspective. Not sure how many details would be correct this far removed. I'm 42 and that would be almost 25 years ago. I mean I have memories but it was a long time ago.

I'm sure if you asked other people how I got my instrument they would have a different story.

And also both stories can be true. To save face, maybe the story told to the buyer was not the whole story.

Everyone can still get a trophy...

...including any claimed motivations for the seller of it to have decided to sell it...and there’s little doubt that a gleaming newish satin silver finish on a giant instrument had the same effect on young tuba players that it does today.
Websites’ text and uplinked videos - as everyone knows - Purvey both information and disinformation. In this case, it doesn’t matter.

[russiantuba]

This could also be plausible:

Arnold Jacobs auditioned on an Eb tuba that had a valve taped down, essentially making it a BBb. It was the Great Depression, and I believe Jacobs’s family was from California, during the time of the dust bowl migrant worker influx. If Ormandy or Donatelli didn’t like the horn, for whatever reason, they would probably want to make a quick sale to recover some of the funds. Seeing a student of his who needs a tuba, he saw a quick sale, and could have made up the fact that it didn’t fit him (it’s possible!). I know I wouldn’t want to buy a horn that a conductor or my teacher hated the sound, so maybe that was made up about it not fitting him well.

Slightly off topic, but read Carol’s interview with Bob LeBlanc. Bob had an factory York 4/4CC that Jacobs wanted, and he was willing to trade one of the CSO York’s. That horn later was sold to LeBlanc’s student, Jim Akins (my DMA professor). The horn was stolen but Jim came across another one. After playing it, I realized why anyone would like and prefer the smaller horn. I heard Jim on this horn many of times with the Columbus Symphony, with resonance greater than a 6/4 and to me, a superior color.

[bloke]

yeah...It has occurred to me that Mr. Donatelli might have told his young student (a young Mr. Jacobs - born in 1915...so either still a teenager or barely in his 20's) "I would like to offer this tuba for sale to you," with young Mr. Jacobs asking "Why?" and - with the response being (rather than "Ormandy told me to dump it") "It just doesn't quite suit me"...with young Mr. Jacobs (skinny kid) viewing his teacher as being somewhat rotund (not really), but maybe ASSUMING that what was meant by that remark (which - I'm thinking - sort of spoke "around" the truth) was that it didn't PHYSICALLY suit him...(???)

...so the explanation - in the previous paragraph - could explain how everyone involved may believe that their version of "the story" is accurate...

...but no one's going to successfully convince me that Mr. Donatelli ACTUALLY/FACTUALLY sold that tuba to young Mr. Jacobs "because Mr. Donatelli had trouble getting his mouth up to the mouthpiece".

To review, the "huge, shiny-new tuba - attracting undue attention to Mr. Donatelli / Mr. Ormandy being a very small man with a very huge ego / Mr. Ormandy disliking Mr. Donatelli in the first place" story is the MOST plausible - at least, to me.

[edfirth]

Just following the Ormandy aspect of this. The Philly orchestra has(has?) a policy of having to only hear local union members, and , if they didn't find anyone they could move on to union members from outside Philly. When Mr. Donatelli retired, and I too, have heard alot of tales of Ormandy wanting him out, Clarence Karella(from Chicago) was offered the job and had started the season when the union stepped in and threatened a strike over the hiring so Clarence split and the job was offered to Abe Torchinsky. Near the end of his tenure, however his wife was very ill and the orchestra salary wasn't covering the bills so when Western Michigan offered him considerably more money he wanted to leave. However, Ormandy's rule was that you had to have permission from him to leave But Ormandy was out of the country with no way to get his permission so Abe split. Ormandy was livid and instructed the auditioning committee not to accept any candidates who had Mr T on their resume which, with their "locals first" policy ruled out almost everyone from Philly...except Paul C. , who got wind of it and left Torchinsky off of his resume and the rest is history.And he may have won ,even a national audition, anyway. As to Donatelli selling the York, people talk about ergonomics on here all of the time. And if the leadpipe was uncomfortable for him I don't know how many cats there were back then who could make and bend a leadpipe to fit a player exactly the way they would want it. So he sells it to Jake and goes back to whatever he was using before. Especially in the light of today's orchestra folks who change horns extremely frequently. And it worked great for Jake for, like 40 years. FWIW, Ed

[bloke]

The oddest thing is not the fact of the story doesn’t quite make sense, but why would someone order such an unusual instrument, why would a company agree to make it (OK…two of them, but maybe the first one was a not-particularly-successful first try, or practice try…so basically a one-off) and then why would the person who ordered it so willingly cast it off…and again: I’ve seen people from skinny 5-foot-tall people to morbidly obese 6’5” people manage to play knockoffs of that instrument, and without struggling to reach the mouthpiece.
Mr. Donatelli - posing with the instrument – is neither of those extremes. Admittedly, I have a personal bias against those things, and (given only those two choices) would choose the Conn thing (which has been labeled with his name) – both for sonic and intonation considerations. I’ve actually played a couple of those Conn things, and they behaved themselves remarkably well...quite useful/easily-steerable instruments.

[Yorkboy]

Those 6/4 Yorks (at least the ones I’ve built, I’ll assume the CC ones too) do have a branch down low that does stick out in the back right about where a larger gut would be, and the mouthpipe does come off on a rather oblique angle; however, those are things that could be remedied to some degree, so I’ve always been skeptical about that story, FWIW; but I can easily see where more could have been made of this than is actually present.

(One of the things that personally puts me off of the various Yorkophones is that mouthpipe angle - and when I build one, I lay it out so that this is not necessary).

I suspect Mr Donatelli was never exited about the horn from the get-go (for reasons either known or unknown) and that his relationship with Conn was strong enough to “keep him on the farm”. Also, it might come as a surprise to some that selection of an instrument can sometimes be somewhat subjective.

The excuse was probably more one of convenience than anything else.

To review, the "huge, shiny-new tuba - attracting undue attention to Mr. Donatelli / Mr. Ormandy being a very small man with a very huge ego / Mr. Ormandy disliking Mr. Donatelli in the first place" story is the MOST plausible - at least, to me.

This is just as good as any theory I’ve heard.

[Doc]

Those 6/4 Yorks (at least the ones I’ve built, I’ll assume the CC ones too) do have a branch down low that does stick out in the back right about where a larger gut would be, and the mouthpipe does come off on a rather oblique angle; however, those are things that could be remedied to some degree, so I’ve always been skeptical about that story, FWIW; but I can easily see where more could have been made of this than is actually present.

I resemble that remark, but that isn't why York style tubas are not high on my list.

(One of the things that personally puts me off of the various Yorkophones is that mouthpipe angle - and when I build one, I lay it out so that this is not necessary).

^^^That is the reason.^^^

I suspect Mr Donatelli was never exited about the horn from the get-go (for reasons either known or unknown) and that his relationship with Conn was strong enough to “keep him on the farm”. Also, it might come as a surprise to some that selection of an instrument can sometimes be somewhat subjective.

The excuse was probably more one of convenience than anything else.

Staying on the farm and subjective tastes are entirely plausible.

To review, the "huge, shiny-new tuba - attracting undue attention to Mr. Donatelli / Mr. Ormandy being a very small man with a very huge ego / Mr. Ormandy disliking Mr. Donatelli in the first place" story is the MOST plausible - at least, to me.

This is just as good as any theory I’ve heard.

This might be the most plausible of all, with conductors, particularly the ones of the past, being self-serving demanders of attention.