Is how many breaths you take just not that important?

[royjohn]

I'm a newbie on tuba, as some of you know. I took a lesson from a college tuba instructor recently and asked about my breathing. I'm 74 and have had some surgeries on my diaphragm that seem to have limited my lung capacity somewhat. I was taking breaths about every two measures in Tyrell #1 and the prof said not to worry about it and to take as many breaths as needed, as long as they were in logical places. He said this holds true in all tuba music in bands and orchestras because it takes our sound so long to propagate that the extra breaths aren't really noticeable.

Agree or disagree?

-royjohn
Tuba newbie

[russiantuba]

I breathe before I need to. My doctoral professor did the same (he holds a full time orchestral gig too).

One person you can listen to is David Zerkel, as he probably breathes more than me and it doesn’t interrupt the music. Seeing how he held a military band gig, was a finalist for the Philadelphia orchestra, and now teaches at “that school up north”, I would say don’t worry about it and trust your teacher.

[MG]

Your instructor was correct to tell you to breath when you need to. Arnold Jacobs would have told you the same thing. He said air if free so take it when you need it. In addition to your surgeries, your lung capacity is diminished due to your age so you (and I) need to take in air more frequently than we did 20 years ago. I am 63. I see and feel a noticeable difference in my lung capacity from years ago. I can’t help but think that as a new the tuba player at 74 you will not only maintain a better lung capacity than if you didn’t play, you might increase it a little bit. Either way, I hope you are enjoying yourself.

[royjohn]

Hello Dr. Green,
...and thank you for your response. I listened to a little Zerkel and to some of the excerpts at your website, too...and you're right! You both do breath "a lot." Coming from a background with trumpet and with singing baroque music, I tend to think in terms of many fewer breaths than anybody could take on tuba. I should have listened to more tubists! It is clearer to me now. We just have to use a lot more air than trumpeters and singers.

Oh, and by the way, both you and Zerkel were very musical! I guess it's all in knowing where to take those breaths!
Thanks again.
royjohn

[bloke]

I suspect that many players would be surprised at how much less air they will use to play the tuba when they concentrate more of their efforts on improved embouchure resonance.
This really important aspect of playing seems to be talked-about/considered all around the edges (avoiding this actual issue straight on) by tuba players and their coaches. Think how much oboe players concentrate on their reeds (simply for the sake of quality of sound), as they’ve got plenty of air for their needs, anyway.
It seems as though - towards the end of the 1970s - tuba playing pedagogy moved away from embouchure resonance and towards increasing air capacity (which is nearly impossible to do). Perhaps, this is because air is much easier to talk about than very subtle changes in - and control of - facial muscles...(??)
TO THE TOPIC:
Yes...Tuba and flute players must be the most clever - when considering when to take in air, and probably find ways to do it more quickly than other players.

[bort2.0]

You're 74 and learning to play the tuba.

Just letting that sink in, because it's awesome. :)

[bloke]

I have a good friend - in the same age range - who played at the tuba as a passable double for years, and was (is - other than the engineered economic shutdown) a busy bass trombone pit musician (thus: the double).
Other than his embouchure resonance, he’s a great tuba player. He tends to cling fairly close to his bass trombone embouchure - more closed - which also tends to prompt him to seek out very small tuba mouthpieces.
Ironically - though a more open embouchure allows more air to pass, it also increases resonance; therefore, the amount of resonance - in relation to the amount of air - increases.

You're 74 and learning to play the tuba.

Just letting that sink in, because it's awesome. :)

[Three Valves]

So long as I don't hyperventilate, no.

[bort2.0]

The way I learned to play was basically:

* Don't breathe so much that you pass out
* Don't breathe so infrequently that you pass out
* Then, make music the best that you can

It takes a LOT of air to move the earth when you play. Lucky for us, people can hear us JUST FINE without having the earth moved. An all-the-time -loud tuba is no fun to listen to AND no fun to play. But playing appropriately and keeping power in reserve -- for when it's needed -- is where the fun happens. And frankly, at any age, the rule remains the same -- breathe when you need to breathe.

I guess people will scrutinize your breaths when you are playing at an audition committee for the Big City Major Orchestra lifetime tuba player appointment. But for everyone else in the world... just breathe when you need to breathe, and try not to do it at the same time as your neighbor.

[Three Valves]

^^^^

That being said, I will place breath mark notations during passages to make sure I can complete them consistently, or on extended whole notes I break up with a partner if I have one.

[bloke]

My first two years of “lessons” were from a little guy playing a fiberglass-and-plastic sousaphone, and sitting next to me in the band – someone who auditioned straight into Pershing’s Own during the Vietnam War - after graduating from high school, and having received no music lessons himself (though he sang out of a shaped-notes hymnal at church, every Sunday).

He never talked about air or breathing, but emphasized getting the lips resonating as to make a really pretty sound.

It seems to me that getting the lips to vibrate nicely is controlled aurally, whereas breathing is controlled subconsciously.

[tubanh84]

There are a few things at play here, but in general, it's not a choice. You can't play without air, and you can only take in as much air as you can take in. So whether it's right or not, in a very basic sense, you HAVE to breathe as frequently as you have to breathe.

If you have to breath so much that you interrupt the music, and it's unsatisfying, there are some simple fixes you can try - Different horn, different mouthpiece, playing a level quieter across the board. Or for the odd phrase here and there that you can't make in one breath but really want to - change the dynamics of that phrase in a way that you CAN make it, with the circular logic that that is the most musical way for you to perform it.

There are also less simple fixes. I think this is what Joe is saying, but I've always thought about it as efficiency rather than embouchure resonance. Make the sound you want with the air you need, and then once you have the sound in your head, try changing your embouchure in ways that produce the same sound but with less air.

You will also increase your usable capacity as you keep practicing the instrument. I frequently breath much more in my first few days back from a break in playing than I do after playing consistently for a week or two. My lungs haven't gotten bigger; I'm just using them better, and that takes practice.

But there is nothing wrong with breathing a lot. I've watched a world class player who was much smaller than me breathe much more than I ever needed to (and I don't have a huge lung capacity). But the player had practiced breathing so much, and had become so efficient/quick at taking in full breaths that it didn't matter. Despite the more frequent breaths, the performance was far superior to anything I could have done.

[russiantuba]

Thank you (I forgot I had those on there ). I probably breathe a bit less now, after some weight loss that has caused efficiency and a better mouthpiece setup, etc., but I have always *tried* to think of a breath as secondary, just to let it happen. If you are talking, yelling, whispering, you probably aren’t going to pay attention to when you breathe unless someone points it out. This is one of the reasons I focused on Bach this summer along with some flow exercises from Bobo’s Mastering the Tuba.

I have encountered too many tubists and low brass players starving their sound at the end of phrases, as many band directors yell “4 bar phrases” till the cows come home. One of my favorite quotes to students “Oxygen is one of the few things you get for free in life, so take advantage of that while you can!”

[bloke]

I realize that I'm appearing argumentative...

There are quite few things that - at almost 65 - I get through much more easily than I did at - say - 50 (or even 35, and certainly more easily then when I was 20), because I'm able to produce considerably more resonance (at the mouthpiece vibration-input point, not from air being pushed from my lungs), and (again) with less air passing between the two vibrating surfaces) that I did in the past.

EDIT: The less air required - to do the same job - the less of an issue "air" becomes.
...The guy who gets 40 mpg with his Corolla (driving through the boondocks at 3 A.M.) is going to not be as concerned (when he has only two gallons of gasoline remaining in the tank) as someone driving a 12 mpg truck in the same situation. Ignoring the likely different sizes of those two vehicles (and - really - the size of a tuba makes little difference, regarding "air"), a more efficient embouchure can be analogized to a more efficient engine/transmission.

[tubanh84]

I have encountered too many tubists and low brass players starving their sound at the end of phrases, as many band directors yell “4 bar phrases” till the cows come home. One of my favorite quotes to students “Oxygen is one of the few things you get for free in life, so take advantage of that while you can!”

I've gone off on on arbitrariness before. So I won't do it again here (much). But I've never met a band director who, once the ensemble started playing, could tell whether I breathed (anywhere, frankly) at 2 or 4 bar increments. And generally, I will breathe more frequently than that in band literature. If there is a need to make specific phrases (Holst Suite 1, for example), I'll do it. But there's no point in taxing yourself for no reason. I had a director once tell me that it's important to breath less, because every time I take a breath, I might miss the next note. That made....very little sense to me.

I realize that I'm appearing argumentative...

There are quite few things that - at almost 65 - I get through much more easily than I did at - say - 50 (or even 35, and certainly more easily then when I was 20), because I'm able to produce considerably more resonance (at the mouthpiece vibration-input point, not from air being pushed from my lungs), and (again) with less air passing between the two vibrating surfaces) that I did in the past.

I've come around to embouchure work in the past few years for a lot of reasons. Intonation, tone consistency, and general consistency being the main reasons. But one side effect has been to improve my efficiency with the air that I do have.

It's also shocking to me how much I've learned to back off on my volume in most settings, but most particularly solo settings. It presents its own challenges relating to air (and also embouchure!). Almost everything on tuba (except phrase length) is easier at mf or louder. But, as long as the issues can be smoothed out, the cello suites sound better when you realize you don't need to play them in the same way you play Bruckner 7.

Now I'm just rambling. BUT AT LEAST I'M NOT RAILING ABOUT ARBITRARY RULES AS I PROMISED I WOULDN'T.

[royjohn]

Hi bort and All,
Lest you think I got a tuba last Thursday, let me say I started back on trumpet at about 56, after a 42 year layoff and I got a big old Besson BBb (the one with the ball the crushes yours on the bottom) about 6 years ago, but I really couldn't play it well (I thought THAT was an air hog) and eventually sold it. Had another BBb tuba, but finally decided the fingerings would be easier on a CC and got one of those a month ago...having spent in four, rather than three figures for this horn, I decided I ought to get serious. I also met a tuba instructor who was moonlighting in a craft brewery (!) and got a much needed lesson to get started. So I'm now playing as much as my wife will tolerate. I might just go out on the deck and play there during the evening sitcoms until the neighbors complain...stay tuned...
-royjohn

[Doc]

I also met a tuba instructor who was moonlighting in a craft brewery

Imagine that!

I might just go out on the deck and play there during the evening sitcoms until the neighbors complain...

You won't do it!
You don't have a hair on your --- if you don't.
I double-dog dare ya!

Sorry. Just some juvenile teasing, I should give you serious credit for playing on the deck/porch/outside. Aside from taking in all that free fresh air, this should be done frequently to be a part of (and communicate with) nature and to enrich the otherwise mundane life of your neighbors. Every street should have a tuba player who serves his neighbors in such a selfless manner. Kudos to you!

[tubanh84]

Every street should have a tuba player who serves his neighbors in such a selfless manner. Kudos to you!

I did this a few times in a place I used to live, where all of the houses were close together. Did random duets with a flute player friend, and the neighbors actually all came out to listen and very much enjoyed it. Don't underestimate the unifying and healing powers of The Tuba.

[Doc]

Don't underestimate the unifying and healing powers of The Tuba.

Amen!

[MN_TimTuba]

Every street should have a tuba player who serves his neighbors in such a selfless manner. Kudos to you!

I did this a few times in a place I used to live, where all of the houses were close together. Did random duets with a flute player friend, and the neighbors actually all came out to listen and very much enjoyed it. Don't underestimate the unifying and healing powers of The Tuba.

We live out in the middle of nowhere surrounded by deep woods. A week or two ago I was out on the rear patio with my still new to me 191, experimenting with volume, breathing, solos, hymns, etc. That evening I got a FB message from my neighbor, thanking me for the concert. He lives a half mile away.
Didn't seem to bother the coyotes much, they still sang their evening prayers.
Tim