POLL: shorty/fatty (York-like) Holton B-flat tuba with 19-inch bell...

[the elephant]

Put the belt buckle on a leather belt and put the belt around the throat of your tuba and you’ll be magically transported back to 1994 when those things made a difference.

I remember that being a thing back in 1985 or so.

[Three Valves]

Put the belt buckle on a leather belt and put the belt around the throat of your tuba and you’ll be magically transported back to 1994 when those things made a difference.

I thought it had died out by then. I recall big buckles in the CB and 8track 70’s... or that could have been where they started...

[bloke]

I got lost - sight-reading a tricky section of a 20th century piece, a few weeks ago...
...so should I have had a leather belt buckled around my tuba bell?

[Doc]

I got lost - sight-reading a tricky section of a 20th century piece, a few weeks ago...
...so should I have had a leather belt buckled around my tuba bell?

Definitely. The sound has to be period-correct.

But, hey! At least you got unlost and found your way back to the 21st century.

[cjk]

What would be hilarious is if the "ELKHORN" was buffed off and re-engraved in the same font as "ELEPHANT".

Or maybe just change "ELKHORN" to "ELEHORN".

Yeah, I know what Wade has already decided to do, but I find this to be a lot of fun. :)

[the elephant]

Please post about my tuba in my thread. It is not cool to repeatedly hijack Joe's thread about his work. Thanks! (Sorry, Joe.)

I am moving my response to my thread.

[cjk]

Sorry to bugger up bloke's thread.

[bloke]

Until I finally find time to shine up the surface of this instrument, this instrument project is completed, and the only continuation of this instrument’s story is the playing of it.
Further, I do not consider the Internet to be any sort of “archive“. I posted endless thousands of lines of poop in another place, and - when the owners of that place finally dropped the biggest piece of poop on it of all, I made sure that all of my poop (and myself) were both gone from there.

This thread is officially open to the public for any and all topics.

OK...ONE comment about this tuba:

When the bore size is this much smaller...and the instrument is front-action/pistons (with so many things that drain ALL OVER THE PLACE...and EVEN THOUGH there are SEVEN water keys installed INCLUDING one on the UPPER #1 slide), it's REALLY important (during the warming-up-the-instrument time) to EMPTY OUT THE WATER...
D@MN , this thing begins to present problems when water is pooled up inside it here-and-there...and (as far as a "double-low" C is concerned) you can just FORGET that pitch - IF there's water pooled up ANYWHERE inside - certainly including in the 5th valve circuit - where I often forget to check (as that one only requires a bit of a tilt and a bit of breath to coax it on into the main slide). (A 19mm bore tuba is more forgiving, regarding this...but the RADIAL different in playability - with water pooling up in a 17.mm bore instrument - is a good reminder to ALSO keep my 19mm bore instrument free of pooling water !!!)

[tubaing]

Bloke, I think I saw you post of Facebook looking to get MAW valves (no I don't have any), you want them for this horn?

[bloke]

I thought I might try them out.
I have a good relationship with Martin.
If I were to get to feeling like I have some money again, I might ask him if he would consider having Meinlschmidt make me a set with pistons #’s 1 and 2 .0005” oversize, as this valveset it’s about 30 years old…not really perceptibly “worn“, but not “spring-chickeny”, either.
OTOH, I have actually have two new oversize and never plated King pistons…#’s 1 and 2...and could get those finished out to .0005” oversize for only about $130 bucks each.
The horn plays fine...really fine.

@tubaing
I will post a picture of your bottom bow - with all of the junk mounted on it, and cleaned up - tonight.

Bloke, I think I saw you post of Facebook looking to get MAW valves (no I don't have any), you want them for this horn?

[pjv]

4 months later...
is it still a keeper?
What kind of repertoire is it at it's best?
and
how's the half-step 5th panning out?

Just curious...

[bloke]

I LOVE it.
I LOVE the fifth valve.
I located a used set of MAW valves...
I'm not sure that they are better, but they are at least as good, and (as they were slightly oversize) I now have better valve tolerances (as they required considerable "fitting"...The original pistons look great, but had been in there - and "school-used" since the 1990's).

Would I ever consider selling it...??
maybe...?? but not cheap.
(ex: Bill took my truly-a-gem 186. I was sad to see it go, but he paid what it was worth, and I was able to cover a relative's medical bills.)
This instrument is yet another gem.
It's a gem because it was a gem to begin with, and not because I straightened it out and souped it up.
I prefer it to ALL of the same-size C tubas (Getzen/CB, 5XJ, Eastman, some of the better Conn "Donatelli-like" C's, etc.) and it's clearly superior to the slightly-larger "new-style" 2341.

I've used it on several (mostly casual/pop music, but which required facility/velocity) quintet gigs, and I've used it (as seen) on a "freeway philharmonic" performance of Concerto for Orchestra (as the loudest note in the entire piece is a "solo" B-natural, and a 5-4 spot-on in-tune B-natural (with tons of cylindrical tubing) was "just the ticket".

I might ?? use it on a pops concert whereby a lot of the stuff (the stuff that's perhaps not cimbasso-appropriate) might be old-school flat-keys Broadway medleys...whereby a broad bell and a moderate bore size might be just the right thing for indoor "oom-pah's".
That having been said (again) the spot-on B-natural/E-natural dictate that pieces in those keys really don't present challenges.

My 5450 is such a kick-ass/do-everything contrabass, that the choices (you're soliciting) might be difficult.

Next Saturday, I'm doing Schubert 9 (bass trombone part) on cimbasso, and - as it's the opening concert of the season - the SSB (anthem)...It's in B-flat, the Holton B-flat takes up less space on the stage - and is a powerhouse, so I'll probably use it on the ' Banner (as I really don't want to cover that part on cimbasso). Heck..."Low F's" on really great B-flat tubas are just better-and-more-fun that "low F's" on C tubas, yes?

Thanks for asking...
I'm considering doing the satin silver thing (again: to cloak scratches, without buffing the h3LL out of it), and - before I would do that - I would effect these three minor alterations:
- thumb trigger improvement (better idea, but only a very minor alteration, and only to the thumb lever itself)
- a 1-1/2 inch long piece of non-slide tubing that is barely non-coplanar needs to be heated and tapped down into being planar.
- shorten the 5th circuit by a total of (maybe...??) 3/4-inch...just to have a tiny bit of "pull-it-out" room (or, perhaps not, as it's "right there").

I pick it up and play (ref: @Doc Bill Holt's six-video series) "tunes" on it quite often.


me: fresh haircut
tuba: fresh vanity initials, and just-added-at-that-time UPPER #1 slide water key
sheet music: obviously, some sort of Broadway medley - played on a breezy day...
...and quite tickled with myself for having bought (from a wholesale jobber) REAL sheet music clips

bloke " who (at this age - needs all the help I can get) typically puts on a black long tie and a black SUIT when told to wear "all black" - anywhere but down in an orchestra pit...and yes: gets regular haircuts, as well."

[Doc]

When you have a tuba that’s fun to play… well… it’s FUN!

[pjv]

Seeing as the 1/2 step 5th really makes you happy:
Have you considered altering any other of your 5v instruments?

Ps. Windy days outside: I’m a big fan of using large rubber bands vertically. I find a solid background (a folder or cardboard) works quick and efficient, especially if I’ve put the music parts in ring binder folders with clear page protecters. Also rain proof on “ify” days

[bloke]

That sounds like a good system, and these see-through lucite clips are also effective - and can be moved around quickly and easily for going from a two-pager to a five-pager. That was quite a breezy day, as each of us were supplied with two cinderblocks for our music stands.

“Low F“ is just too important for there to not be a slam-down valve combination for it that requires no slide adjusting, so with the C-length tuba, I feel like I’m stuck with a 5th valve (as 5 is always all there are on C instruments) being a GG whole step. (Were a C instrument 5th valve length to be an adjusted semitone, “low F“ would define the combination 5-2–4 - with a frantic 3-inch pull of the 4th slide. With a B-flat instrument, I don’t-at-all mind doing that for the seldom-written “low E flat“, but not for the commonly-written “low F“.

More than once, I’ve spoken out about six valve systems on C instruments. With so many of the C instruments, 5-2-3 is pretty good for low F#, but too long for C#… and with no viable choice for double low D (a pitch occurring more and more often in written music), other than epic frantic slide pulling.

At least with rotary C instruments, the 4+2 system would be quite viable, as both thumbs would still be available for spring-loaded slide triggers - for additional micro-tuning.

Even with the piston models, clever engineers could route their mouthpipe tubes - somehow - to allow for 4+2 systems.

“Using seven or eight digits“ - with the benefit being “nearly perfect lengths of tubing for nearly every single pitch“ - would be a very easy choice for me to make…

…and sure: 3 valves - with no slide adjustments - is just fine for purely having fun…

…but people - who would never choose to “hang out“ with me - hire me back (over-and-over), I suspect because I make their stuff sound better via - among other factors - very conscientious intonation.

Seeing as the 1/2 step 5th really makes you happy:
Have you considered altering any other of your 5v instruments?

Ps. Windy days outside: I’m a big fan of using large rubber bands vertically. I find a solid background (a folder or cardboard) works quick and efficient, especially if I’ve put the music parts in ring binder folders with clear page protecters. Also rain proof on “ify” days

[pjv]

And now forty’s last question:
Have you used your 1/2 step 5th independently?
The reason I ask is obvious I believe: I’ve also thought about adding a 1/2 step 5th to my BBb, but a dependent system would be much easier.

[bloke]

So far, I've not used it without the 4th circuit engaged.

I could imagine some B-flat tuba that exhibits considerable variation in intonation verity between the 5-4 "low E" and the 5-4 B, though...

...that someone might possibly (??) wish to use 5-1-3 for one of those two pitches...

...and who could say (??) whether (on some particular instrument) 5-2-3 might offer some really nice alternative for C (which often trends a bit flat, with the low-F length for the 4th circuit...

When a new feature is hooked up to device, it is not that uncommon to discover more than the intended use for it...

...just as with therapeutic medicines.

[DandyZ629]

I really want to try this thing. I need to bring my 3J and my Rudy and make a trip to Memphis soon.

[bloke]

This valve section (which I heavily altered) came off of an early (sure: school-owned, and likely seldom-oiled) two-piece King 2341 - probably (??) made in the 1990's.

The pistons' and casings' condition was "pretty darn good"...certainly no rattle...and no holes in the plating, but I'm not sure that it was any better than rating an "A".

I actually found someone - in upstate NY - would was willing to barter a set of King-fitting MAW valves for some repair work. The tubas haven't found their way down here yet, so I'm still indebted to them. Serendipitously, the MAW pistons were all "tight". Now...I'm "good" working with valves...I don't have any of Dan O's equipment or machining skills but - over the decades - I've developed a pretty good touch, and some pretty good techniques.

After an hour or two, I got all of the MAW pistons fitting in all of the casings.
Here's the "patting myself on the back" thing:
NONE of them stick...ever...BUT - when I oil them - they are very subtly "clingy-er" than with NO oil...which means that (yup) I got all of their tolerances CLOSE.
Here's something else: I've heard Dan O criticize these valves - suggesting that their design defines them as too delicate. I believe that - once fitted, they are as substantial as any other pistons. That having been said, if I got a bit in a hurry (or just barely too aggressive in fitting them to their respective casings) they WOULD barely "click"...which means that I was (albeit barely) flexing them ...so - when I heard/felt that happen - I would back off.

[pjv]

How does the horn blow if you compare it to the old valves. I ask since I imagine the idea behind the MAW is that it blows freer, something which could be to ones advantage on a small bore horn.

PS needless to say, Fast Valve Oil is probably one of the lightest oils out there.