King 1135 for adults?

[DonO.]

The Conn-Selmer web site lists the King 1135 as being “designed for young students” and having the leadpipe “appropriately placed”. Any thoughts on using this horn for a basically normal sized adult looking for a smaller, lighter horn? Would said adult find the proportions and leadpipe placement difficult? Has anyone here actually used that horn for that purpose? If so, please share your thoughts. Thank you.

[Mithosphere]

Yea, these are fine for normal adults. Nothing real special about them, reminiscent of the Yamaha 103.

[bloke]

...please share your thoughts. Thank you.

My head I'd be a scratchin'
While my thoughts are busy hatchin'
If I only had a brain.

[DonO.]

I have to say, I turned to this forum looking for some expert advice and so far I am not impressed. One legit answer and one snarky one that didn’t address my question at all. I was hoping for more here.

[Three Valves]

I've never seen an 1135 in real life and have never played one.

Perhaps most of the experts here haven't either.

Or don't care to...

The three valve prejudice is strong here.

[DonO.]

Thank you Three Valves. I want to go with small horn three valves to keep size and especially weight down. I think I could cover all I want to do at my age and stage. It’s funny how many players sing the praises of the late lamented Yamaha 103. That horn only had 3 valves but was very well respected. Maybe there is strong 3 valve prejudice UNLESS it is a “certain” horn. Olds O-99 is another “3” that gets respect. Unfortunately neither the Olds nor the Yamaha are available new anymore.

[LargeTuba]

I think if you wanted a light tuba and didnt care about 3 valves, I'd get a old but good working American Eb tuba.

[The Big Ben]

I have to say, I turned to this forum looking for some expert advice and so far I am not impressed. One legit answer and one snarky one that didn’t address my question at all. I was hoping for more here.

I wonder what you were expecting. Nobody will lead you by the hand here and you do need to look around a little.

You received one answer that addressed your subject and gave you something to compare with. Regarding the King 1135, there really isn't much more to say. It's a peashooter (small bore) beginner's tuba. As an adult, you would probably grow tired of it in a few months. The list price of those hards is far too high for what it is. Woodwind and Brasswind is asking $5400.

John Packer makes a four valve 3/4 BBb tuba that is roughly based on the Yamaha 103 but with four valves.

https://www.jpmusicalinstruments.com/pr ... p179b-tuba I could not find a price but it is a much better horn for a significantly lower price.

Finally, most every bit of information you could want about tubas is here. There is a search function which can be accessed on the top of the right hand side of every page. Considering what you are asking about is 3/6 BBb tubas, a search on that topic found the following thread which should be informative:

viewtopic.php?t=814

[DonO.]

The Big Ben-I belong to several other forums pertaining to several different instruments I play, and in all of those the advice flows very freely when someone asks a question with many replies. That of course did not happen here in this forum. I am no newbie to music forums and so of course I know how to use a search function. The only other thread here other than my own that mentions “King 1135” pertains to someone looking for a replacement leadpipe for one. Not very helpful to me. It has always been my experience with these types of forums that they are full of people with strong opinions. And people with strong opinions are usually very anxious to share them, so as to bring other people to their point of view. You obviously have strong opinions, derisively calling the 3 valve King a “peashooter”. Question for you: would not ALL smallish 3 valve tubas also be “peashooters”? And if they are, would not the Yamaha 103 also meet that definition? And yet many players extol the virtues of that particular model, even playing it at gigs. It has a smaller bore than the King! You point out the John Packer to me as a possibility. I did not say this in my original post but I do not want a Chinese horn. I realize people will probably start throwing stones at me for saying that, and so be it. We all have our own personal reasons for considering or not considering various horns. Let’s just leave it at that please. And finally, there is no excuse whatsoever for the condescending and downright rude “if I only had a brain” response from another member of this forum.

[hrender]

I think any request for info on a 3v "student" horn will yield some responses like "It's a 3v student horn, what do you expect?"

If you're looking for recommendations of currently made small US/EU/JP-made BBb horns for use by a doubler, posting that as an open request might yield more focused responses. If you're open to older, no longer made horns, possibly with >3 valves, you'll have more options (i.e. Old O99).

FWIW, this particular request has come up many times over the years, so searching the archives here and over at the other tuba bboard should yield several results.

Good luck.

[Doc]

The Big Ben-I belong to several other forums pertaining to several different instruments I play, and in all of those the advice flows very freely when someone asks a question with many replies. That of course did not happen here in this forum. I am no newbie to music forums and so of course I know how to use a search function. The only other thread here other than my own that mentions “King 1135” pertains to someone looking for a replacement leadpipe for one. Not very helpful to me. It has always been my experience with these types of forums that they are full of people with strong opinions. And people with strong opinions are usually very anxious to share them, so as to bring other people to their point of view. You obviously have strong opinions, derisively calling the 3 valve King a “peashooter”. Question for you: would not ALL smallish 3 valve tubas also be “peashooters”? And if they are, would not the Yamaha 103 also meet that definition? And yet many players extol the virtues of that particular model, even playing it at gigs. It has a smaller bore than the King! You point out the John Packer to me as a possibility. I did not say this in my original post but I do not want a Chinese horn. I realize people will probably start throwing stones at me for saying that, and so be it. We all have our own personal reasons for considering or not considering various horns. Let’s just leave it at that please. And finally, there is no excuse whatsoever for the condescending and downright rude “if I only had a brain” response from another member of this forum.

First of all, welcome to the forum.

Secondly, the King is not a bad choice for a small 3v tuba, and neither is the 103. I don't see the King for sale used nearly as much as the 103, but I have to agree with Big Ben that prices online are often incredibly inflated for what you get. If you haven't already located one (hence your question?), then I'd be highly selective. I'm of the opinion you could get a lot more bang for your buck for some of the King prices I've seen. But if you're really feeling the King is the one for you, I would simply encourage caution and wisdom in your shopping - get one in good shape and don't overpay for it (of course, you alone are the arbiter of value). No one will beat you up for the no-Chinese thing. Several folks here that feel that way. But people often try to help by offering other possible options (If you're on other forums, then you know the drill).

Lastly, I don't need to defend bloke, but I've known him for many years (as have most of us), and I know him personally outside this forum. If you took that post as a personal insult, you have misunderstood. He pokes more fun at himself than anything (scratching his own head). And he is one of the most knowledgeable and experienced posters here. And the most prolific (to all of our benefit). And comedy, satire, snark (no malice intended), poking fun, self-deprecation, etc. takes place frequently, especially between those of us who have been doing this for a bunch of years together. No harm intended. Come on in, take your shoes off, and pull up a chair.

[DonO.]

Interesting to learn that peashooter is derisive to a tuba.

Anyhow, student model tubas are built for people that don’t have a lot of experience playing and don’t have many demands of the instrument.

The sizing aspect in the sales literature is primarily marketing speak. An adult should be able to use one without issue and you can likely find a stand to help bring the horn up to level if needed.

[iiipopes]

I am of average height. Some years ago in community band another person of average height showed up at rehearsal with a 1135. He did fine with it. He complained of his tone being grainy. He was playing a Bach 18. I suggested a Conn Helleberg 120S for its deeper cup to round out the tone and being relatively inexpensive. He sounded so much better, both to us and to himself, he gave me the Bach 18!

I have another friend who is a trombone player who doubles on tuba, and is also average height. He has a M-W 11, another 3/4 horn with upright valve geometry. He sounds great on it as well.

And finally, now passed on, the gentleman who retired from being principal double bassist in our regional orchestra purchased an older 3/4 Conn to play in community band in his retirement. I don't remember what mouthpiece he used, but of course he sounded great on it, having also been a school band teacher.

The point of the digression: yes, 3/4 tubas, including the King 1135, can sound really good with the right approach and a proper mouthpiece. Generally, don't overblow them, and relax into the lower register. If you could get the King 1140, the 4-valve, that would be better, but the 3-valve will do.

Here's how traditionally to tune a 3-valve horn:
1) Make sure the open Bb - F - Bb notes are in tune with themselves, and split the difference on the main tuning slide if they are not.
2) Tune 1st valve Ab - Eb - Ab just a hair flat, but not so flat you can't lip up to tune.
3) Tune 2nd valve A - E - A also just a hair flat, but not so flat you can't lip up to tune.
4) Check 1+2 G - D - G to see if it is in tune. It should be just a hair sharp, to lip into tune. Adjust 1 and/or 2 accordingly if not.
5) Pull 3 to tune 2+3 Gb - Db - Gb a little flat, so that you can lip it up.
6) Check 1+3 F - C - F to see if it needs more than a little bit of lipping down to be in tune. If so, pull 3 a little bit more.
7) Good luck on 1+2+3 E - B - E. They are always sharp.

Since the 1135 is a front-valve instrument, if #1 valve slide is reachable, you can set 2+3 in tune if you can pull 1 to get 1+3 in tune, and you can tune 1st and 2nd "dead" and pull 1 slightly to get 1+2 in tune.

Hope this helps.

[DonO.]

NOW we are getting somewhere! I apologize if I took bloke’s post the wrong way. Thinner skin in my old age I guess. As a newbie and him an old timer I should have cut him some slack. I REALLY appreciate the hints on tuning a 3 valve instrument too. Makes great sense! I used 4 valves during most of my so called “career” and so never had to worry much about 1-3 and 1-2-3. Also appreciate the stories about adults using student horns and making them work. I am not completely sold on this particular model, it’s just all I can find that meets my criteria. Do I wish it was about 2000 dollars less than what it costs? You bet!

[DonO.]

@DonO., you could throw up a “WTB” post (want to buy) post in the proper section with your pertinent criteria for purchasing and you might be surprised with what’s available in good shape for a great price.

[LargeTuba]

Also Conn .656" bore 3/4-4/4 tubas are great. You can get them in 3 and 4 valve versions pretty cheaply. They play great (when in good condition). I wouldve kept the one I sold but I don't have much need for it.

[Doc]

Also Conn .656" bore 3/4-4/4 tubas are great. You can get them in 3 and 4 valve versions pretty cheaply. They play great (when in good condition). I wouldve kept the one I sold but I don't have much need for it.

@DonO., Just tacking on to the Conn idea…

I had a Conn 10J for a number of years that was fun as heck to play (not perfect, but pretty easy to play). A friend of mine wanted to get back into playing, so I gave it to him and told him to be blessed. And to play the crap out of it. If you aren’t averse to top action valves, these, like other smaller Conns, are easy held, easily managed, and make a nice full tuba sound. And are well under $2000. Often under $1000 if you don’t need a beauty queen.

[The Big Ben]

You obviously have strong opinions, derisively calling the 3 valve King a “peashooter”. Question for you: would not ALL smallish 3 valve tubas also be “peashooters”? And if they are, would not the Yamaha 103 also meet that definition? And yet many players extol the virtues of that particular model, even playing it at gigs. It has a smaller bore than the King!

"Peashooter" simply means "small bore". A class of trombone with a small bore is also called a peashooter. The term is not intended as a pejorative but as a reference to the bore size as compared to others. I own a Mirafone Standard Perinet 3v BBb which I classify as a peashooter because it has a small bore. It's easy to overblow the horn because it will not handle as much air as a horn with a larger bore. I also have an Olds 099-4 4v BBb horn with a larger bore than the Mirafone. It is pretty easy to fill the horn and I have yet to overblow it even when attempting to play loudly in a concert band.

If you can find one that is not beat to death, the Olds 099 or 099-4 would be good small BBb horn. I don't think they have been made new for over thirty years and many of them went straight to a junior high bandroom and, at this time, can be well worn. It's not really worth it to have one fixed up (unless it just needs minor repairs) because it is easy to have more money in it than is practical. (I have an 099-4 I had fixed up. I spent a lot of money on it and it looks and plays great. If I were to do it again, I would have started with a different horn) In the past, I have also had a King 1140 which is a 3/4 3v BBb horn with upright valves. It is much like the King 1135 except it has upright valves. Some of them are also convertible marching tuba of the "contra" on the shoulder variety. It was OK but, again, it was easy to overblow because of the size of the bore. I have no experience with the small Conn horns. The Yamaha 103s have gone up significantly in price over the last few years.

[Mithosphere]

The Conn-Selmer web site lists the King 1135 as being “designed for young students” and having the leadpipe “appropriately placed”. Any thoughts on using this horn for a basically normal sized adult looking for a smaller, lighter horn? Would said adult find the proportions and leadpipe placement difficult? Has anyone here actually used that horn for that purpose? If so, please share your thoughts. Thank you.

To be fair, Conn-Selmer has to make money. What better way than to fool people into thinking they need to start kids on a "student" tuba, then move them to the "step-up" tuba like a 2341, and finally rounding things out with a "collegiate" Holton (Yamaha 321 copy).

Besides, I thought I read that most of these "student" tubas were Chinese made anyway?

You'd be better off with that JP Yamaha copy if that design is what you're after. Otherwise Jupiter has a rotary or a FA piston 3/4 size tubas similar to the Yamaha 103.

[LeMark]

.

Besides, I thought I read that most of these "student" tubas were Chinese made anyway?

.

Yeah that's true. Good point