player's big lips / wide rim (why?)

[bloke]

It's not me that has made this correlation, but customers (racial/genetic/etc.) have told me,

I need [that] rim, because I have big lips.

I just don't understand why there would be a correlation between "big lips" and the need for a wide rim.

- The best I can tell, (my own) facial muscles extend all the way under (my own) lips, and the surface of the lips (and I'm certainly not an anatomist) seems to be - simply - a transitional surface between the interior of the mouth and the body's (regular/epidermis-bearing) skin.

The only part of the lips which really matter (in my best estimation - regardless of how wide that transitional skin might be) is/are the apex of the arched lips' inner diameter, where the critical vibration occurs.

To repeat the premise, I just see no correlation between "big lips" and a necessity for a wide mouthpiece rim.

Indeed: I've sold my narrowest rims (as well as medium-width) to people with "big lips", and they call me and order more of them.

The second oboe player (would be an amazing principal, were they appointed) in the Memphis Symphony has "big lips" and there's just no problem with them managing anything whatsoever, in regards to their playing. To understand what that oboe player - with "big lips" must do, the tip of this American/"Tabuteau"-style reed is extremely thin, those two "windows" (towards the back) add resonance (which is why this style of reed - assuming very well-made - sound "pretty" and store-bought reeds sound "harsh"), and the lips must ONLY contact that small area between the tip and those two symmetrical "windows". (They taught my daughter briefly - years ago. They actually brought it up in a lesson, and reported that it wasn't/isn't an issue at all.) Note how narrow that area - between the reed tip and the "windows" actually is...



OK..."What prompted all of this, bloke...??"

I'm considering offering yet another (totally different cup) model of Sellmansberger mouthpiece (now: aurally tested and thumbs-up'ed by Mrs. bloke, and - well - it pleases me tremendously...(for my personal use, and in my personal opinion) for certain types of tubas...
...and I'm considering (simply) offering it in silver plating one-piece brass, with no options whatsoever (ie. "like most mouthpieces"). If I go into production, it will feature my (most popular, and the only one I'm willing to personally use) #2 profile rim, which is narrow (yet not particularly "sharp-edged").
sure: The plating will wear off the rim, and it will scuff/scratch easily, but - those who confuse the vibration-amplification properties of tubas with those of guitars, violins, and drums - might be more likely to buy one.

[GC]

I've always thought the whole big lips bit was silly, especially considering the number of genius trumpet players who have been big-lipped.

[Three Valves]

Yes, I’ve been cursed with trumpet lips.

[lost]

I have big lips and prefer a wider rim. I assume because lips are big there is a lot more meat that vibrates so any extra metal you have to stop that meat from vibrating except where it's suppose to is helpful.

[tofu]

.

[Doc]

I'm considering offering yet another (totally different cup) model of Sellmansberger mouthpiece (now: aurally tested and thumbs-up'ed by Mrs. bloke, and - well - it pleases me tremendously...(for my personal use, and in my personal opinion) for certain types of tubas...
...and I'm considering (simply) offering it in silver plating one-piece brass, with no options whatsoever (ie. "like most mouthpieces"). If I go into production, it will feature my (most popular, and the only one I'm willing to personally use) #2 profile rim, which is narrow (yet not particularly "sharp-edged").

Do tell!

[matt g]

My take on the mouthpiece interface:

Rim width (inner to outer diameter): thicker lips can typically handle thinner rims. Likewise, thinner lips do well with thicker rims.

Cup (inner) diameter: usually has to do with oral structure, primarily size of the oral cavity. Bigger oral cavity implies a larger cup diameter. That being said, this also is a function of the range of focus being played.

Inner rim bite: typically, flatter teeth can handle a little more bite. Conversely, teeth that protrude a bit or have some alignment issues do better with a softer inner rim.

The above is by no means definitive, rather observations from over the years.

[bloke]

meh...What good is 2D (or blather, for that matter)...??
About all that might possibly be recognizable would be the #2 rim profile...
The proof is always in the playing...
(I'm using it this week on a scary music pops...yup, with the silver turned off the rim, yet again...as I've had it plated twice, but kept "messing" with it... I'll probably have a nice green ring around my mouth by Saturday night, but I'll also probably know whether-or-not it's worthy of marketing to others. So far, I believe it plays my squatty Holton B-flat better than any of my other cups (which is why I started "messing around", again), so (maybe...??) it would be a great York 4/4 / King / Getzen-CB-Stofer / Eastman 4/4 / Conn 5XJ / Gnagey (etc.) m'pc.

I'm considering offering yet another (totally different cup) model of Sellmansberger mouthpiece (now: aurally tested and thumbs-up'ed by Mrs. bloke, and - well - it pleases me tremendously...(for my personal use, and in my personal opinion) for certain types of tubas...
...and I'm considering (simply) offering it in silver plating one-piece brass, with no options whatsoever (ie. "like most mouthpieces"). If I go into production, it will feature my (most popular, and the only one I'm willing to personally use) #2 profile rim, which is narrow (yet not particularly "sharp-edged").

Do tell!

[kingrob76]

I have an enormous head and lips. I find the rounder rims to be more comfortable and the wider rims to be more comfortable, but, none of the rims I use are overly large (32.6 seems to be my sweet spot). I find the sharper inner edges play better on some mouthpieces than others. I don't mind narrow, but, I don't really care for flat.

What does all this mean? Certain rim profiles seem to work better for me on certain cup profiles, but not on others. No one rim plugs into everything. And flat, narrow rims just don't seem to work for me at all. I might LIKE C4 type rims, but, they don't always make sense it seems.

[Dan Tuba]

Even after many opportunities to try many different mouthpieces, some of which are very expensive, made from different material, etc...the Bach/Faxx/etc 24AW mouthpieces are still my favorites. Both for comfort, and performance as an all purpose mouthpiece.

I have no idea why

[GC]

A sharp bite is terrible for those of us who play with too much pressure. It makes for good articulation, but it's just damn painful. I prefer a medium-rounded rim, don't care about the width, and a rounded bite (not TOO much). I can't tolerate a flat, old-Conn-Hellishburg-120 rim with a sharp bite, the way they made them in the '70's. Some people despise comfort rims. I despise discomfort rims.

But that's just me. Some of the best players I know used a Conn Helleberg 120 their entire careers and never felt a need to change.

[Doc]

A sharp bite is terrible for those of us who play with too much pressure. It makes for good articulation, but it's just damn painful. I prefer a medium-rounded rim, don't care about the width, and a rounded bite (not TOO much). I can't tolerate a flat, old-Conn-Hellishburg-120 rim with a sharp bite, the way they made them in the '70's. Some people despise comfort rims. I despise discomfort rims.

But that's just me. Some of the best players I know used a Conn Helleberg 120 their entire careers and never felt a need to change.

You know, of course, the real answer is not to play with too much pressure.

Just make a

68A07134-2C47-45E3-B514-B345264F08CC.jpeg (36.5 KiB) Viewed 1279 times

[GC]

Doesn't work that way. My mouth is narrow, but my lips are thick and fairly inflexible. If I play with too little pressure, nothing works. I've worked on lightening up and have been conscious of the problem for decades, but less than a certain amount of pressure, I can't control anything.

[Rick Denney]

My lips are wide and I use a medium-narrow rim.

And I am totally interested in this mouthpiece. For my Eastman, I've been using a Mike Finn 4, which is really an F tuba mouthpiece, to lift the pitch and keep the sound focused. The Eastman is kinda picky, also, about the shank size--my S. Solo (sized for a B&S F tuba) bottoms out.

The only really bad thing done by my first band director was pointing me to a Bach 24AW with the "cushion rim", which did not punish me for using too much pressure, and thus I learned from the start to use too much pressure.

Rick "interested in the characteristics--shape, dimensions--of the mouthpiece" Denney

[bloke]

Not only is this mouthpiece offering me a little bit more sparkle without being “bright“, but it’s also raising the pitch overall (surprisingly significantly) while being a somewhat-deep funnel style mouthpiece.
I guess it’s the first pretty much “Helleberg“ type of mouthpiece that I have found useful to myself (for ONE of my instruments, at this point) in a long long time. A couple of things that help are the fact that it’s not some endlessly deep funnel, and that it doesn’t have one of those super-flat/super-sharp rims.
If I decide to produce it (??), I’m probably going to follow the strategy (though I believe it will just be one piece silver plated brass) of the bonded economy mouthpiece that I offer, IN THAT I’m probably going to use a shank size in between euro and standard on it (as so many receivers on German tubas seem to be in between), and - if somebody really needs it to be standard - they can easily jam it on a drumstick in a vice (with a towel on the floor - in case they drop it), and sand it down to standard with cloth-backed sandpaper.
Using it on the squatty Holton B-flat that I just built, I’m actually pulling the main slide out an additional 3/4 of an inch (of course, that’s actually 1-1/2 inches of extra length) for the same tuning - compared to the mouthpiece that I have been using with that instrument. I would suspect, then, that this mouthpiece would also make it possible for me to play any of those “Baer” models up to pitch easily (etc.) … and I do like the up-in-the-staff accuracy/security that it is offering me on this particular B-flat contrabass tuba (shrugging my shoulders, as I have no idea why it’s doing that for me).
also: If anyone is considering asking me “Why does a mouthpiece with about the same cup depth as another one raise the pitch so much?“… I have no idea. I’ve never claimed to know what I’m doing, and I’ve only come up with stuff that I like to use myself via trial and error - with (apparently) quite a few other people liking a lot of the stuff as well. …I’m just not any good at laying mumbo-jumbo on people, so I don’t try to do it.
Finally, I wasn’t really all that interested in going back to my crappy lathe, starting off with yet another small mouthpiece (as a defacto
“blank“) and screwing around - yet again - to see what I could come up with for this “new“ tuba. I kept trying to work with my other my other four cup shapes in both depths. All of them did OK, but none of them quite offer the type of sound - or offered quite the amount of very-little-concentration-required playing security that I was looking for - to play this particular tuba.

[Rick Denney]

Put me on the list.

Rick “seeing the right words” Denney

[Mary Ann]

I have skinny lips and on a tuba mouthpiece you can't even see them because almost my entire mouth is inside the cup. So other than comfort the rim just doesn't matter because basically I'm free buzzing. Pressure only pushes on my face bones. Yet the silly thing still sounds like a tuba.

The 2nd horn in Tucson Symphony has big fat lips and the horn mouthpiece is way inside both of them.....and he is quite a fine player. I imagine he chooses a horn rim for the same reason I do, for comfort.

[bloke]

I’m not much on knowing about anatomy, but when I run the tip of my tongue on the INSIDES of my lips, I don’t feel any edges of muscles through the lining of my mouth.

[Dan Tuba]

My lips are big, and I have a very pronounced "tear drop." My rim choice has more to do with large uneven surfaces, holes on parade fields, pot holes on city streets, and gravel practice lots/fields. My rim choice also depends on the fact that some days, I have to play perform, 6+ hours of on your face the whole time wind band, brass band(Nola), and brass quintet

So basically whatever rim doesn't cause my teeth to cut into/through my lips in all of those situations/circumstances listed above. If I were just sitting on a stage, and playing intermittently, then my choice would probably be different

[bloke]

I don’t remember how far back in the thread it was posted, but I think a combination of these two things
- sharp angles on rim edges
- strong pressure
can be harmful.
(maybe, something like a cookie cutter…??)

When I encounter really great players - who play on high-contact-area rims (or – for that matter - challenging-intonation instruments) - it’s my belief that they do remarkably well in spite of those things, rather than because of them…
…so my hat’s off to those people, but I don’t credit the equipment for their success.