Alexander Tubas

[Pakins51]

I’ve heard of people using Alexander 163 in orchestras, but I know they are about the same size as as a Miraphone 186/188 with a larger bore. So I’m just wondering if anyone has had experience using one of them or just hearing them in an orchestral setting and do they really put out enough sound to back an entire ensemble?

[BuddyRogersMusic]

There are many legendary recordings of players and their Alex holding down the bottom end of big orchestras; Chester Schmitz, Mike Thornton, Dave Braguenier to name a few, and I know I left out many. The right horn in the hands of someone that knows how to play it and properly employ it in whatever ensemble they play will make the group sound great. I've played a few good Alex tubas and some not so great but that can go for just about any brand/model.

Lee Stofer has three Alex CC tubas at his shop now; two 163 and one 173. If you can get to Iowa to try them, you may be able to answer your own question.

[bort2.0]

Yes, they can

[Stryk]

Absolutely!

[Doc]

Dave Kirk, Houston Symphony

https://youtu.be/V2_xPuW9gsM

https://youtu.be/Sv5G92U3wXw

https://youtu.be/deeIuv1fzw0

https://youtu.be/fpmEyz0WkYg

[kingrob76]

My teacher in college (Mike Bunn) was a student of Bragunier and played an Alex 163 for a LONG time. Mike eventually pivoted more towards piston horns but sounded like a million bucks on his Alex when I was a student. In the 2020's that sound is NOT as popular as it was in the 1970's and 1980's. It's DIFFERENT for sure, but, you can absolutely hold down a orchestra of any size with one. I've only seen and played older examples, all of which were NOT point and shoot intonation wise which also puts a lot of players off - but the sound is excellent.

[bloke]

Their instruments - now: with more human-sized mouthpipe tubes and rethought bow tapers (for their C instruments) - are mostly more accessible than are some of their older instruments. The newer ones that I’ve played still sound to me like the 50 and 60 year old ones that I’ve played - just without all of the work, and without the raw brass odor. I’ve read where a couple of people have claimed otherwise, but I suspect that - missing the tactile and olfactory sensations (of the old-school wide-open blow and the brass odor) - some people’s aural perceptions (comparing recently-made to vintage) might be affected.

general observation:
Just recently, a few more tubas (compared to the past) have been introduced to the market that are easier to play (tuning/response/flexibility). When I play some of my own instruments, I sometimes think, “I wonder what [remarkably-fine past player] would have thought, had they had access to an instrument like this”.

Likely, this is why such a high percentage of traditional large ensemble tuba parts - that we encounter - ask us to supply sounds and sound effects, rather than musical lines or interesting (or even gymnastic) melodies.

[Rick Denney]

Mike Sanders played a 163 from 1972 to 1984ish in the San Antonio Symphony, when he switched to a Yorkbrunner. He sold it to Morris Kainuma, who used it in the Honolulu Symphony, as I recall, for a few more years. I don’t know who has it now.

Lee Hipp also played a 163 in San Antonio for a few years after Mike moved to the St Louis Symphony.

Rick “a lot of work” Denney

[bloke]

Every make has a distinctive feel and sonority, but I suspect that to patrons - and even trombone sections and music directors - Alexander tubas sound just about like Miraphone 86s, 88s, M-W 25s, and B&S 101s.

I realize that saying this might raise the eyebrows of Alexander lovers, but think about when someone brings a new same-size-as-their-old-one (different make of) large bore F-attachment trombone to a gig… It really doesn’t sound much different from their old one, yes?

[Brendan Bohnhorst]

As someone who has played one of these as my primary CC and F tubas for quite a while, I feel obligated to way in.

I think that Joe is pretty accurate on describing the 163 model Alexander (no eyebrows going up here, lets be honest about what these tubas are). It sounds a little larger (bigger/darker/whatever you want to call it) than a Miraphone 188. I think of them as slotting right in between a rotary PT6 and the 188. Like most handmade brass instruments of older design and build, they very quite a bit from one to the next. And the good ones have been played so often, for so long, that they really need to be looked over by a good tech to make sure that the wear and tear of decades of playing isn't impeding what they are. The newer ones are really easy to play and still have "the sound" that people talk about.

Were they the best tool available for orchestral playing for a few decades? Probably (some of the recordings previously mentioned sound fantastic). Are they still? Probably not. Just because I can play "The Ride" on my little Alex F doesn't mean that I should or that it is ever going to be easy to do. Wrong tool for the job. All the old stories about Kilton Vinal Smith doing stuff like that in the Boston Symphony on F tubas are great, but he didn't have a big modern tuba at his disposal. They played the best instruments they had.

I have been lucky enough to sit next to the same bass trombone player in my little orchestra for about 15 years. I've also played a ton of different instruments with him (6/4 york-a-phones, pistons, rotors, etc). The Alexander CC is pretty much the only one that he comments on (positively). No one else seems to take much notice as long as I play in tune, and in time.

[tindalltuba]

As someone who’s tried just about everything, and owned many different tubas, I’ll chime in here. I presently have two very different Yamayorks, Warren Deck’s 2165, and recently purchased a brand new Alexander 163.

In my orchestra we will go anywhere from 50 people on stage to over 100, and then into to the opera/ballet pit, this varies week to week and depends on what the repertoire/series is. The 6/4 tuba just doesn’t fit for “everything” that we do. For the time being, it really helps me get my job done.

I currently am enjoying this tuba for many reasons. It sports great intonation, is colorful and in a certain way defaults to a very dark timbre, it also has what I would call a very “polished core” that sports a unique sized halo around it depending on the size of mouthpiece you choose to go with. There isn’t much “fat” to the sound. IMO, it is definitely larger sounding than a 186/188/PT6, and more comparable to a modified Thor that I owned. To me it’s a 5/4 & 1/2 when it needs to be, and dialed in it’s a solid 5/4. The large/long leadpipe and large 20.5 mm bore, and steady instrument taper has much to do with this.

The build quality of the newer instruments is fantastic, and having played many older 163 models I would dare say that the famous German sound is still there with the usual quirks all having been addressed.

[russiantuba]

Is the goal of a tuba to balance an entire ensemble? There are rare times that is the case, and in those times, I recall hearing Roger Bobo on a Miraphone 184/6, Warren Deck on a small 5/4 Geib rotor tuba, etc. I play a Miraphone 1291CC with a Sellmansberger Symphony and I have had no issues putting a bottom to some very good trombone sections, and out of all honesty, most 4/4 tubas can perform that function. I have always considered 6/4 tubas to be more "band" style tubas in creating that string bass section sound (but that is the way I hear it).

Many professionals have used Alexander tubas on prominent recordings. Listen to Cincinnati Symphony perform Church Windows under Jesus Lopez-Cobos. Pete Norton on Bass Trombone is a force to reckon with (I have played with him in an orchestra), and you can hear Mike Thornton on his Alexander 163CC with absolute no issues. Music Hall isn't the easiest hall for a tuba to project in and the Cincinnati orchestra is a very "full sounding" orchestra.

[tubanh84]

I have, many times, gone to a concert and heard the tuba player warming up on stage with a York copy. I've been lucky to hear a lot of great tuba players in that setting. And I've been universally amazed at the sound I hear during their warm-ups. I have been even more amazed at how I could not hear them once the show started. That gorgeous sound from the warm-ups presumably was there, but it didn't project into the hall once the overtones were all taken up by the instruments who naturally play those frequencies. There are two exceptions to that generality. One played a Nirschl. The other played a PCK. But I have to believe it was the players, not the horns.

I have always thought that something like an Alexander may fix that problem. But I've never heard one in a big group live.

[bloke]

Discussions about who used what and whether _____ is big enough etc. etc. are pretty meaningless.

99% of us - who play in orchestras that pay from $5000 a year to $120,000 a year - can show up to work with about any tuba (Olds O-99-4 to Yamaha YCB-826S) that offers decent tuning (tuning that can stay between the ditches) and not get called out. The other one percent probably have tuba nerds as music directors. Our instruments don’t need any provenance nor any particular brand engraving. They only need to stay within 5% of tune, and to not step into rests.
If we can additionally demonstrate enough flexibility whereas we can play louder, softer, shorter, longer, or even soften our in articulations, we are then considered to be remarkable…
…and Alex tubas are included in the list of those that are playable, whether G is fingered open, or whether it is fingered 1 & 3.
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“entire ensemble”…
I’ve worked with some very fine and very powerful string sections, wind sections, and brass sections. The only times I’ve wondered whether I was being heard have been individual pitches played against cymbal crashes or other percussion noise… and this also would include when I’ve chosen to use a euphonium to cover an early 19th century bass brass instrument part in an orchestra score.
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People listen for different things, and I suspect (??) that some people do some of their listening with their eyes. Mostly, as I’ve watched things like “orchestral” trumpets, trombones, and tubas made larger and larger over the past forty years, their sound has become more and more bland.
I would predict that this trend will eventually reverse itself, but I’m not sure if that will happen before most paid orchestras are out of business.