That pesky CC intonation again

[ole_irgens]

I have been in direct touch with his Blokeness regarding this, but would like the views from this excellent community as well.

Instrument being the JP379CC "Sterling", a 4/4 horn with 4+1 valves (4 piston + 1 rotary).

And yes, this is another intonation issue, where Eb with 2+3 below the staff is way too flat, whereas the other tones are in tune or manageable with lipping or 1st slide pull. Ab and Eb in the staff are in tune with the 2+3 valve, so this is a mystery.

Probably the best solution might be to shorten the tubes to the 3rd valve slide and make it pullable, this was a suggestion from mr Bloke, and I have discussed this with the leading personnel at my tuba clinic here in Bergen, and they may concur.

The horn is otherwise excellent, and blends nicely in with a Eb and a BB horn in my local wind band. The tuba has a nice big but focused sound, and I like it a lot, but that darn Eb is driving me nuts. Any suggestions are appreciated, although some blacksmith work on the instrument seems like the most viable solution right now.

[Doc]

I have been in direct touch with his Blokeness regarding this, but would like the views from this excellent community as well.

Instrument being the JP379CC "Sterling", a 4/4 horn with 4+1 valves (4 piston + 1 rotary).

And yes, this is another intonation issue, where Eb with 2+3 below the staff is way too flat, whereas the other tones are in tune or manageable with lipping or 1st slide pull. Ab and Eb in the staff are in tune with the 2+3 valve, so this is a mystery.

Probably the best solution might be to shorten the tubes to the 3rd valve slide and make it pullable, this was a suggestion from mr Bloke, and I have discussed this with the leading personnel at my tuba clinic here in Bergen, and they may concur.

The horn is otherwise excellent, and blends nicely in with a Eb and a BB horn in my local wind band. The tuba has a nice big but focused sound, and I like it a lot, but that darn Eb is driving me nuts. Any suggestions are appreciated, although some blacksmith work on the instrument seems like the most viable solution right now.

Your current plan to shorten the third valve slide seems to be the most logical and reasonable, and thankfully is not a major surgery.

[matt g]

Do you primarily play your CC or Eb?

I ask because the note you’re having issues with on CC is open on Eb, which can sometimes throw off the chops.

A somewhat similar problem will occur on F tuba for people that primarily play CC.

Not saying the horn isn’t off, but I’d probably have someone else, hopefully a CC player, work through some scales also and see if they have the same issue. If not, it could be your embouchure fighting the completely different feel between two different horns.

Maybe? :-)

[bloke]

It's a virtually perfect copy of the Hirsbrunner (now Adams) model 392...

...including all the same quirks.

The 392 (as well as the rotary Hirsbrunner C model 290) is obvious a factory-made shorter version of the (fairly easy to play in-tune) Hirsbrunner (rotary) B-flat model 192.
As many of us know - from playing/owning old Alex C tubas - that SOMETIMES seems to work out OK, but OFTEN does NOT really turn out all that well.

I owned a Hirsbrunner 392 (late 1990's, for a couple of years), and sold it - after recommending that one of my students at Ole Miss buy a Miraphone.
Once I played the student's new 186 (and being reminded of how easy it was to deal with), I began asking myself, "...so why am I dealing with all of this...??"

After selling the first C tuba - a 186 - that I ever owned which - due to the era of inconsistency in which it was built - was more quirky than many of the others, I went through a series of quirky-tuning C tubas:
- Alex
- cut Holton 345
- Rudy 4/4
- Gronitz PCK

In-between, I owned a couple of less-quirky-tuning C tubas (a couple of 184's, and a 188).

I've since decided that "tuning" trumps "the sound" (as it's really ME making "the sound"), and I have (very much) "settled" on a B&S-made Meinl-Weston 5450, which offers me very easily-manageable intonation - along with a nice big "carburetor".

I TRULY believe that Hirsbrunner should have HELD ON that *ORIGINAL (model 390 - shown below) 4/4 piston C tuba design (which was a yorkbrunner/Nirschl-made valveset pasted on to their rotary C tuba (model 290) body, and featured an extra tuning slide in the mouthpipe).
BUT...(as that model was just as quirky as the 392) that tuning slide should have been oriented UPWARD - so that the left hand could manipulate it and tune every pitch (as the ultimate work-around for a quirky tuba).

When people ask about this model, I tell them all about it:
- amazing build quality
- all the same quirks as Hirsbrunner/Adams
I don't promote it.

All with ALL of the JP euphoniums, I DO promote ALL of these models of their tubas:
https://www.jpmusicalinstruments.com/pr ... p179b-tuba
https://www.jpmusicalinstruments.com/pr ... ng-ff-tuba
https://www.jpmusicalinstruments.com/pr ... sousaphone
https://www.jpmusicalinstruments.com/pr ... g-bbb-tuba
https://www.jpmusicalinstruments.com/pr ... ng-bb-tuba
https://www.jpmusicalinstruments.com/pr ... g-eeb-tuba
https://www.jpmusicalinstruments.com/pr ... 7-eeb-tuba
https://www.jpmusicalinstruments.com/pr ... 78-bb-tuba

There IS a model of JP C tuba which is in development, but "the pandemic" - sadly - put that (which had been progressing along nicely) on hold.
Once it's finally in production, I WILL promote the hell out of that model...It's really going to be popular (and easy-schmeazy to play in tune).
_____________________________________
*

HB2P.jpg (59.99 KiB) Viewed 1133 times

[Doc]

There IS a model of JP C tuba which is in development, but "the pandemic" - sadly - put that (which had been progressing along nicely) on hold.
Once it's finally in production, I WILL promote the hell out of that model...It's really going to be popular (and easy-schmeazy to play in tune).
_____________________________________
* HB2P.jpg

Like an HB 2P/390, but with the leadpipe curly-Q turned into an upward-pointing tune-it-all slide? Or some sort of modified HB21/392?

Doc (who has always liked those 80's vintage HB 2P tubas, but the HB21 not so much)

[the elephant]

I agree with Joe. You would be best served by cutting until you have no flat notes, then pull to set everything where it needs to be, pushing in for the flat note. I would not cut anything until you have determined that you can do nothing else, via a mouthpiece, or additional long tone practice.

I realize that you probably already know these things and have done them, but I never advise making difficult-to-reverse alterations to a horn until I am sure that such an action *is* the solution. If that is the case then I do whatever needs to be done and don't look back.

Please note that the 23 combination is a funky one on many tubas in all four keys. However, I have encountered it more on CC tubas, personally. For me that Eb is usually very sharp when it is out. Also for me, the bottom space Ab is usually flat, if it is out at all.

Have you played any exercises with drone pitches? I would look for some of those and focus on all keys where that pitch is in use in the exercise. That way you can see how it stacks up as root, M3, m3, P5, and m7. It might not be as far out as you think.

[ole_irgens]

Do you primarily play your CC or Eb?

I ask because the note you’re having issues with on CC is open on Eb, which can sometimes throw off the chops.

A somewhat similar problem will occur on F tuba for people that primarily play CC.

Not saying the horn isn’t off, but I’d probably have someone else, hopefully a CC player, work through some scales also and see if they have the same issue. If not, it could be your embouchure fighting the completely different feel between two different horns.

Maybe? :-)

Maybe not ;) I hardly play the Eb anymore, the CC is my main instrument. But thanks for the input anyway :)

[matt g]

Do you primarily play your CC or Eb?

I ask because the note you’re having issues with on CC is open on Eb, which can sometimes throw off the chops.

A somewhat similar problem will occur on F tuba for people that primarily play CC.

Not saying the horn isn’t off, but I’d probably have someone else, hopefully a CC player, work through some scales also and see if they have the same issue. If not, it could be your embouchure fighting the completely different feel between two different horns.

Maybe? :-)

Maybe not ;) I hardly play the Eb anymore, the CC is my main instrument. But thanks for the input anyway :)

Just checking!

[ole_irgens]

Thanks for all your input. I think tube surgery will be the best solution, but will try other remedies first, like practicing long tones etc. Hope you all have resumed regular tuba playing, and that the infamous c-virus has been eradicated from your rehearsal rooms and concert halls.

[bloke]

The prominence of the picture - which is only a “what if they had done this“ picture - is confusing.
The C tuba in development bears no resemblance to any Hirsbrunner.

There IS a model of JP C tuba which is in development, but "the pandemic" - sadly - put that (which had been progressing along nicely) on hold.
Once it's finally in production, I WILL promote the hell out of that model...It's really going to be popular (and easy-schmeazy to play in tune).
_____________________________________
* HB2P.jpg

Like an HB 2P/390, but with the leadpipe curly-Q turned into an upward-pointing tune-it-all slide? Or some sort of modified HB21/392?

Doc (who has always liked those 80's vintage HB 2P tubas, but the HB21 not so much)

[Mark Horne]

If the 2-3 Eb is way too flat, have you tried it with 1-5 with the 5th slide pulled out? Better than cutting slides if you can avoid it.

[ole_irgens]

If the 2-3 Eb is way too flat, have you tried it with 1-5 with the 5th slide pulled out? Better than cutting slides if you can avoid it.

Thank you. I use the 2+5 with the 5th slide pulled out, it is a bit sharp but lippable. Maybe 1+5 is better, I will give it a try :)

[Innocent Bystander]

I'm interested to know more about this new JP CC that is in development - any more info? Is it based on something or a new design?

[Doc]

I'm interested to know more about this new JP CC that is in development - any more info? Is it based on something or a new design?

@bloke
Indeed. Is there any info that you can divulge publicly?

[bloke]

It's been on the drawing board and in prototype stage for too long for me to get anyone's hopes up.
When I have a dozen to sell, you'll know it.
IF I BUY a dozen to sell, you'll know that they don't suck.