Valves Freezing in the Cold

[James1350]

I've been busking as my main gig since summer, and am prepared and layered to continue through the winter. (three jackets and snow pants, the works) However today, which was -7 degrees Celcius (19 Farenheit) when I got to my busking spot (10 minutes from where I parked) I got my horn out and my valves were completely stuck. I blew heaps of air through the instrument for several minutes and I managed to get the first valve moving, then worked it while continuing and could eventually get all 4 to work. This was all fine early in the evening, but whenever I'd put my instrument down to talk with people, or fiddle with my electronics (loop pedal, mic, and bass amp) I'd lose the last two valves, and have to pump an ungodly amount of air through once again. It also seems that the amount of warmth produced from my normal playing can't keep up with the cold, and even if continually playing the valves will start to freeze up.

Any ideas for how to keep this from happening? I imagine there must be tricks of the trade players from cold places use to make survive Christmas parades and the like. I would like to keep busking, and the winters here (Ottawa, Canada) vary from 0 C to -20 C pretty regularly with the occasional -30 C which is probably past my limit for tuba playing.

I was playing a German rotary Eb, but I also could play a Conn 12j, a Boosey and Hawkes Imperial Euph, or a Yamaha straight tenor trombone.

[tofu]

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[the elephant]

Read through this rather dry and boring document. It will help you. ($1 to Rick Denney)

This is a patent for a mixture to be used as a valve and slide lubricant that has a very low freezing point. The patent was applied for in 1978 and was awarded in 1980, but I have never heard of this stuff, so perhaps it was not commercially successful.

[matt g]

For a piston valve instrument, a Velcro strap of sorts and some of those chemical hand warmers (sleeved in a black sock likely as well) should do alright also.

[the elephant]

Read through this rather dry and boring document. It will help you. ($1 to Rick Denney)

This is a patent for a mixture to be used as a valve and slide lubricant that has a very low freezing point. The patent was applied for in 1978 and was awarded in 1980, but I have never heard of this stuff, so perhaps it was not commercially successful.

Funny, after reading that patent I was reminded of a story from an old band director wherein alcohol was used to free up valves in some very low temperatures at a gig. I believe his reference for alcohol was “food grade” and not “pharmaceutical grade”.

[the elephant]

Uh-oh, Matt. You just triggered an "elephant unsolicited response" that has little to do with anything. There goes the neighborhood again. BAHAHAHA!!!

When I was in the Army Band of New York City we used this homebrew mix of kerosene and "food grade" alcohol (AKA Beefeater gin) and it worked pretty well.

Around that time, a Supply Sergeant in the USAF band up in Alaska (c. 1986) told me* they were trying out JP-8, which is a kerosene-based jet fuel with corrosion inhibitors and a de-icing ingredient. It had been in use by the USAF for under ten years at that time, but it was easy enough to get if you were connected. I drove down to Dover AFB to visit a buddy, and he got me a gallon of the stuff in a container that was safe to transport. (JP-8 is a lot less combustible than pump gas.) A bunch of us in the band tried it out and it worked great, but we were never sure it was safe. (It never occurred to us that Al Cass was not "safe" either. People, don't ingest your valve oil!) We only used this stuff on our GI horns, which all had Monel pistons. The corrosion inhibiter seemed to play nice with the Monel pistons and brass casings. >>> I don't know about stainless steel. <<< It stank less than you would expect, and no one's valves ever froze when we used it at outdoor gigs in February in Upstate or New England, which were ofttimes in the single digits on the F scale.

Kerosene freezes up at about 15º F so you cannot just use that. I do not know whether a commercially available, kerosene-based jet fuel with anti-icing additives is available. You could probably just walk into a regional airport that can service private jets, slip someone some cash, and hand them a tiny funnel and an empty (and very clean) shampoo bottle and get some. I don't want to be sued if anyone does this and then grows extra lips or something. Try this at your own risk. But jet fuel is like lamp oil with all sorts of additives, one of which frequently is an antifreeze additive. I am sure it will kill you if you decide to take a big swig of it. So go be stupid on your own dime, folks. HA!
_______________________________

* He did this via the old 490-L AUTOVON system. Do any of you guys remember AUTOVON?)

[Ace]

Scenario: 1960. Two bands, 21st Army Band, and Fourth Infantry Division Band, 80 players combined, at Fort Lewis WA on vast North parade ground #2 right on the Puget Sound shoreline. 13 degree temp chilled by 25 mile per hour steady wind with 45 mile per hour gusts. Everyone chilled to the bone, but no frozen pistons. Don't know why. Standard issue valve oil from the bands' storerooms was Yamaha, if my memory is correct. Mercifully, a number of speeches at the parade event were cancelled to get the troops off the field and into buses to barracks.

Ace

[bloke]

I wouldn’t recommend anyone else do it, but I would probably use a bit of a poisonous liquid that is used in cars - because I don’t drink out of my instruments; I only blow into them.

[Three Valves]

For a piston valve instrument, a Velcro strap of sorts and some of those chemical hand warmers (sleeved in a black sock likely as well) should do alright also.

This is similar to what we did in ‘77 during the Carter inauguration parade. I believe ours were actually burning in asbestos cases. It was cold and windy. It was the only time I recall the Pom Pom girls being frigid!!

[iiipopes]

One word: vodka.

[Rick Denney]

Note that the patent identifies propylene glycol as the alternative to the glycerol—aka RV antifreeze available in gallons at auto parts stores for Blokian prices. Looks like 4 parts RV antifreeze, 4 parts Everclear (remainder stored separately for alternate uses), and 2 parts water will do the trick, assuming the patent claims are valid.

Rick “the RV antifreeze is designated for potable water systems but is NOT good for you—don’t drink it even accidentally—it tastes really terrible and will end your playing session” Denney

[bloke]

ok...

Now that the problem of "freezing valves" has been solved for you yankees, how do you plan to solve the "tuning" issue - particularly if there happens to be some sort of electronic keyboard (etc.) involved, "out there"?

This is an ABOVE-typical-indoor-temperature chart...but (in your minds' eyes) just "flip it upside down", go about 5 degrees below 0 centigrade (32 Fahrenheit) and see where you're going to end up:



I suspect this is a tuba-christmas-related question, but still...as Mr. Phillips' idea was to promote the tuba - and its more widespread involvement in everyday music, does a combination of acoustically-too-low harmonies AND 'bad tuning' promote that goal?

Even in "the south", the "mall" venues seem much more practical (though, in the particular city closest to me, there are too many vehicle break-ins and too much gun-play - associated with any/all of the malls).

bloke "just askin'..."

[James1350]

ok...

Now that the problem of "freezing valves" has been solved for you yankees, how do you plan to solve the "tuning" issue - particularly if there happens to be some sort of electronic keyboard (etc.) involved, "out there"?

This is an ABOVE-typical-indoor-temperature chart...but (in your minds' eyes) just "flip it upside down", go about 5 degrees below 0 centigrade (32 Fahrenheit) and see where you're going to end up:



I suspect this is a tuba-christmas-related question, but still...as Mr. Phillips' idea was to promote the tuba - and its more widespread involvement in everyday music, does a combination of acoustically-too-low harmonies AND 'bad tuning' promote that goal?

Even in "the south", the "mall" venues seem much more practical (though, in the particular city closest to me, there are too many vehicle break-ins and too much gun-play - associated with any/all of the malls).

bloke "just askin'..."

I play solo and hope nobody can tell how flat I am. If any Christmas group appears I guess we'll have to agree on how many cents flat we feel like playing. Comes right after negotiating our uniforms.

[YorkNumber3.0]

.

[iiipopes]

ok...

Now that the problem of "freezing valves" has been solved for you yankees, how do you plan to solve the "tuning" issue - particularly if there happens to be some sort of electronic keyboard (etc.) involved, "out there"?

This is an ABOVE-typical-indoor-temperature chart...but (in your minds' eyes) just "flip it upside down", go about 5 degrees below 0 centigrade (32 Fahrenheit) and see where you're going to end up:



I suspect this is a tuba-christmas-related question, but still...as Mr. Phillips' idea was to promote the tuba - and its more widespread involvement in everyday music, does a combination of acoustically-too-low harmonies AND 'bad tuning' promote that goal?

Even in "the south", the "mall" venues seem much more practical (though, in the particular city closest to me, there are too many vehicle break-ins and too much gun-play - associated with any/all of the malls).

bloke "just askin'..."

Tuning? Outdoors? In the cold? With somebody else? Not playing brass?

[bloke]

Hey… This is “highbrow“ Alec Wilder stuff we are talking about.