Recording in your apartment - How good can it get?

[Dopey]

This is more a personal experiment than a good idea or wise investment.

Most of my playing is at a local church with a local brass band. Really love 'my' sound when warming up before rehearsal, etc.

Is it possible to capture that sound when playing in an apartment?

Today I have an H4N which I've experimented with placement -- above, below, near, far, in a corner, etc. No matter where I place the mic the recording sounds 'terrible' in my ears. Very drone, no resonance, etc.

I know you can add artificial reverb, but was hoping to improve the recording side first.

Not surprisingly I sound very different to myself while playing in the apartment than the church.

I am wondering if buying an additional mic and having 2x mics in the room would help, or if there is any tricks to do. (Sticking the mic in a metal box, a shoe, Pointing towards a corner, whatever).

My dream is to be able to send to family/parents back home 'proper' recordings of me, as they enjoy that. Secondly I'd love to do some duet/trio/quartet tuba pieces myself and stitch them together really just for fun. But that is a topic itself :D

...I think there is no improving this -- The recording will not sound better than it sounds to 'me' live basically. I've spent a few evenings googling and oddly you don't find extensive articles on best mics, setup for recording a Tuba :) I thought i'd ask the forums before blindly ordering a Shure mic or something stupid..

[matt g]

Have you tried moving yourself as well? That is, putting yourself in one corner and the mic in another?

Likely it won’t matter much if your room is small. There probably aren’t enough trapped modes in that room.

[bloke]

I suspect that these factors are going to be your enemies:
- low ceiling
- parallel walls
- mic placement too close to the instrument (undesirable resonance characteristics that might disappear fifteen feet away, as well as clattering noises)

Where I am are some pretty nice rooms in which to record. My enemy is my imperfect playing.

[Dopey]

Have you tried moving yourself as well? That is, putting yourself in one corner and the mic in another?

Likely it won’t matter much if your room is small. There probably aren’t enough trapped modes in that room.

I have, minimal effect. Even walked around my apartment, to my ear the bathroom sounds the best when I play in it :D I haven't' tried recording from it yet though. Since I was going to do video for my folks, didn't think bathroom was viable. Then again, maybe playing Tuba on the toilet is the next viral video?

I've settled on the living room as it's also without neighbors on all but one side -- trying to be considerate :)

I suspect that these factors are going to be your enemies:
- low ceiling
- parallel walls
- mic placement too close to the instrument (undesirable resonance characteristics that might disappear fifteen feet away, as well as clattering noises)

Where I am are some pretty nice rooms in which to record. My enemy is my imperfect playing.

To be clear my playing is the largest enemy. The unrelenting 'dead' sound of the recording hammers this home 100x as well -- and the lack of consistent practice for the past 15 years. There is a reason there was no samples provided :)

The room is small, 290 square feet (27m*2), and very much a rectangle. Solid concrete walls, hardwood floors -- Sweden :)

Placement I've only had the different of hearing every breath/metal clang vs not -- placing the mic near vs across the room.


Really dumb question; Would having multiple mics make anything better? My crazy idea was to buy a Shure XXX(or whatever you recommend) and put spread them out.

I don't quite understand if you want the mics picking up what 'you hear' aka church sounds good so mics sound good or if you want the mics picking up 'just the tuba' and the depth comes from multiple mics? . If that makes sense...

[Doc]

Even walked around my apartment, to my ear the bathroom sounds the best when I play in it :D I haven't' tried recording from it yet though. Since I was going to do video for my folks, didn't think bathroom was viable. Then again, maybe playing Tuba on the toilet is the next viral video?

The perfect pooping position might also be the perfect playing position, although I'm not sure I would engage in both activities simultaneously. Either way, it would give additional meaning to the term "brown note."

I have a larger room for recording. Even in the bigger room, mic placement can be a challenge. The Hagen is still simply too much for the room to be captured accurately. In a hall or performance venue, it really opens up and I hear the sound that made me want to buy it, but at home, it is still constrained. Where you sit, the direction you point the bell, and mic placement can all have an impact on the recording. Experimentation is your friend.

[matt g]

Even walked around my apartment, to my ear the bathroom sounds the best when I play in it :D I haven't' tried recording from it yet though. Since I was going to do video for my folks, didn't think bathroom was viable. Then again, maybe playing Tuba on the toilet is the next viral video?

The perfect pooping position might also be the perfect playing position, although I'm not sure I would engage in both activities simultaneously. Either way, it would give additional meaning to the term "brown note."

I have a larger room for recording. Even in the bigger room, mic placement can be a challenge. The Hagen is still simply too much for the room to be captured accurately. In a hall or performance venue, it really opens up and I hear the sound that made me want to buy it, but at home, it is still constrained. Where you sit, the direction you point the bell, and mic placement can all have an impact on the recording. Experimentation is your friend.

Absolutely. It’s hard to nail everything down.

My 2165 sounds much better outside, all things being equal; there’s no room in my house big enough for it to fully resonate.

[UncleBeer]

What's become possible in home recording is just mind boggling. You could always close-mic (watch levels! that's important), edit (punch in via adjacent tracks) to your heart's content, and add as much reverb as you find appealing.

[bloke]

question posed by the person who originated this thread: "additional mics"

A stereophonic sound - nearly always - tends to improve perception of fidelity.

I gave a friend a (really nice) Soundwear gig bag - which fit his Eastman 4/4 thingie like a glove...a bag that I probably would
have continued to hoard, had I known that I was going to - someday - build a shortie Holton B-flat tuba...but he had bought one of those "sleeping-bag-with-a-hat" gig bags (which f-ed up his bell - and which really upset him, so...)

I guess he decided to show his appreciation and give me one of those "Zoom" (brand) recorder things, as he had a spare.
Those already have two mics on board...though they they probably (??) aren't quite as true as my nice old pair of Neumanns.

[Rick Denney]

I use an old Audio-Technica AT-822 stereo microphone, with both mics going into a Presonus Studio 24C USB interface (not expensive). That unit has decent microphone preamps and zero coloration (and I have tested that). That gives a USB input data stream that I know isn’t clipping or distorting because of cheap audio stuff in the computer. I use Audacity for recording, or Presonus Studio One.

I mention the electronics because there are four distortions that must be avoided. The first is overloading the mic’s transducer. Most mics overload at sound pressure levels of 125-140 dB SPL. Tubas can be louder up close. Those who clip mikes to bell rims are actually looking for some compression from mic overload (maybe they don’t realize this), but it’s nonlinear behavior that will make the sound more intense. The next distortion is in the mic preamp, which must be turned down enough not to clip. The third is in the mixer/audio-digital converter input. The fourth is making sure the digital stream doesn’t run out of bits before you run out of loud. If the waveforms in Audacity have square tops but not at full scale, you have clipping earlier in that chain. If the waveforms crash into the full scale (probably called “0 dB” in the software, or “100%”), that is digital clipping—reduce levels. Distortion adds harmonics tubas don’t, and it will mess with the sound of the instrument.

Bass reinforcement is best when the source is in a corner—that’s where I sit. But a flat ceiling is tough—I’m glad I have a sloped ceiling that opens into a little more space.

When I recorded the Hirsbrunner, which is an ultra-projecting kaisertuba, the sound was strident. I recorded one thing for a Covid project using my Holton because of that—a little more pillowy and less piercing. But then I backed the microphone away about six feet, and well outside of the bell’s blast zone. That may mean nearer the floor. It also means away from first reflections—there should be no wall, floor or ceiling that if covered with a mirror would allow the mic to see the tuba bell. That helped greatly. The sense of command I hear bouncing back to me in a big room isn’t there, but that’s an unreasonable expectation.

Big rooms can be worse, by the way—echoey and muddy.

But the mechanical acoustics of our heads are always optimistic. We have to live with that.

Rick “unable to escape TRVTH” Denney

[Dopey]

Thank you for all the great feedback! Some really great tips, I had never heard the mirror comment before.

I will experiment this evening with more placement. I think I will record video of my living room and roam around to different playing places, and different mic places. Then listen to it all.

I haven't tried mic'ing from directly above my bell pointed down; it seems some folks do that ? I found a russian tuba player going through about 4-5 mics in this setup.

Unfortunately I am a bit of a gear junkie so once I decide I need/want a mic it becomes a bit inevitable... If you were to buy a mic to record yourself -- both just playing solo or recording multiple tracks/combining, what would you recommend :D

I do also play with a few others at work, and potentially would use it to record those gigs as well -- we play at company events for fun. Most important tho is for my own use.

I am very much considering Shure SM 57, Shure Beta 52A, Audix D4 or D6.

[iHeartLowBrass]

I live in a 1950s ranch-style with 8 foot ceilings. I've tried various schemes for getting "room sound" e.g. put the mic in the adjacent room, across the room, etc, but the space is just too small and there's all kind of weird resonances and quirks. Not to mention noise from within and outside the house.

I kind of hate to admit that by far the best results have come from putting the mic right in front of the bell (hung from the ceiling with a "custom-made shock mount" L0L). It's an AT 2020 USB going straight into the computer (Audacity). Then adding some combination of compression, stereo reverb, and EQ, suited to whatever I'm recording. Yes you need to be careful with your levels and such but IMO if you're halfway close and not clipping it's fine. I have found that this mic works great on tuba, flugabone, trumpet, and voice, and since it has USB output there's no need to purchase a digital interface. Works for me ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

One space I've gotten pretty good natural sound from was an outdoor park pavilion that's located in front of a small cliff, providing a sort of natural amphitheater. I still added some reverb tho

[bloke]

There are no ceilings in blokeplace, as all of the ceilings follow the roof lines - which are tall.
These big tall rooms - that are obviously NOT cathedral sized, and feature junk sitting around in them - seem just about ideal.

[iHeartLowBrass]

And just like that I'm back on my vault-the-common-rooms pipe dream

[Mary Ann]

I have a similar situation....the main part of the house is TOO reverberant to record even with input way, way down. We can play duets in here but it is LOUD and my former plans for having a quintet rehearse here (plenty of floor space) would simply not work out. I haven't dug out the H4 since ten years ago when it got put away, but trying to record just simple stuff with the cell phone just doesn't work. Maybe if I put it in the kitchen.

You do remind me of a Christmas quintet concert very long ago in a mall. I had my Mfone 184 CC then....and I was entranced hearing my own sound in that huge space. Playing was effortless; I think we don't realize how much work we do trying to overcome small spaces when playing instruments such as tubas.

[Doc]

I have a similar situation....the main part of the house is TOO reverberant to record even with input way, way down. We can play duets in here but it is LOUD and my former plans for having a quintet rehearse here (plenty of floor space) would simply not work out. I haven't dug out the H4 since ten years ago when it got put away, but trying to record just simple stuff with the cell phone just doesn't work. Maybe if I put it in the kitchen.

You do remind me of a Christmas quintet concert very long ago in a mall. I had my Mfone 184 CC then....and I was entranced hearing my own sound in that huge space. Playing was effortless; I think we don't realize how much work we do trying to overcome small spaces when playing instruments such as tubas.

I've always believed that if I can make it sound good in a small room (college practice rooms were incredibly small), it will be much better in a big room or hall - and that seems to prove itself out over and over again. A big room/hall is certainly effortless by comparison IMHO.

[Dopey]

I definitely agree and the largest improvements in the quality reside on me. The fact these recordings are so harsh does it make it easy to find where to improve -- and if you can make it sound good at home it'll sound amazing at the concert hall.

I Have no doubt many of you could record in my apartment and sound better than I do live at the best church setting :)

I've continued experimenting with placement and settings. I believe the best i've found is across the room with the mics faced into a corner of the wall.

Here is H4N directly above my bell pointed into the bell, gain 5.
https://cdn.slackspace.io/recordings/h4 ... gain-5.mp3

Across the room with mics into the corner, gain 50.
https://cdn.slackspace.io/recordings/h4 ... corner.mp3

What i'm trying to figure out now is would a different mic do any better or let me capture both above bell and across room then mix together.

Please forgive the out of tune, out of time, wrong notes, etc. Just tried to play things to get a sense of the sound.

[iHeartLowBrass]

FWIW here's that recording above the bell fed through the default Audacity reverb, settings midway between their medium and large room presets, then normalized to peak at 0 dB:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lKKwBH ... nZlLA/view

[Dopey]

Well I ended up going with a Sennheiser e902. I am still playing around with location, but so far have settled on having it nearly vertical in the corner, as high as the desk clamp/stand allows.

It is a very different sound than the H4N1 and combining I think I am starting to like how it sounds -- or at least how I perceived my own sound to be. As others have said practicing is what will lead to the best improvement.

Just incase others stumble upon this when searching for tuba mics. No effects in audacity. Gain -10db on h41n track when doing the combined.

Just h4n1 alone
https://cdn.slackspace.io/recordings/h4 ... silent.mp3

Just e902 alone:
https://cdn.slackspace.io/recordings/e_ ... silent.mp3

Combined:
https://cdn.slackspace.io/recordings/e_ ... silent.mp3

And my S21 Ultra phone recording me randomly playing Christmas carols in the middle of Stockholm: