@Stryk
When you finally make it up here, I would still like for you to bring that Jimbo knockoff of a Miraphone 80 F tuba with you.
I don’t see myself as a potential buyer - and I believe that Mr. Bobo showed us that cutting them to G is not a particularly good idea, but I’m just curious as to whether those things played as well as the originals.
The originals are pretty darn good instruments, and get a bad rap from - seemingly - the plurality of people who try to play them as if they are contrabass tubas. To approach with a euphonium type of approach is a pretty good start, and then add - from that point - a teaspoon at a time.
Optimum number of horns
Forum rules
This section is for posts that are directly related to performance, performers, or equipment. Social issues are allowed, as long as they are directly related to those categories. If you see a post that you cannot respond to with respect and courtesy, we ask that you do not respond at all.
This section is for posts that are directly related to performance, performers, or equipment. Social issues are allowed, as long as they are directly related to those categories. If you see a post that you cannot respond to with respect and courtesy, we ask that you do not respond at all.
-
bloke
- Mid South Music
- Posts: 19244
- Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:55 am
- Location: western Tennessee - near Memphis
- Has thanked: 3822 times
- Been thanked: 4078 times
Re: Optimum number of horns
I will do that! William Morris came over a couple weeks ago. Although he plays it better than I can, he confirms that it sucks. I don't see anyone as a potential buyer
I don't have a bore scope, but it feels like there is a major alignment issue. I've played some nasty Eb horns, and never had an issue getting them to play, albeit in some sort quarter tone scales. But, this horn has me buffaloed.Terry Stryker
Mirafone 186C, 186BBb, 184C, 186C clone
Gebr. Alexander New 163C, Vintage 163C, Vintage 163BBb
Amati 481C
Lyon & Healy 6/4
Kane Stealth tuba
A plethora of others....
Mirafone 186C, 186BBb, 184C, 186C clone
Gebr. Alexander New 163C, Vintage 163C, Vintage 163BBb
Amati 481C
Lyon & Healy 6/4
Kane Stealth tuba
A plethora of others....
-
bort2.0
- Posts: 5253
- Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 9:13 am
- Location: Minneapolis
- Has thanked: 336 times
- Been thanked: 999 times
Re: Optimum number of horns
My optimum number is 1 tuba, and that is a Miraphone 188.
Things rarely run at "optimum," do they?
Things rarely run at "optimum," do they?
-
bloke
- Mid South Music
- Posts: 19244
- Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:55 am
- Location: western Tennessee - near Memphis
- Has thanked: 3822 times
- Been thanked: 4078 times
Re: Optimum number of horns
One seems the most sensible for most people.
For me, that would define considerably more practice time.
For me, that would define considerably more practice time.
-
DonO.
- Posts: 674
- Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2021 11:12 am
- Location: Meadville, PA
- Has thanked: 252 times
- Been thanked: 259 times
Re: Optimum number of horns
With all due respect, it really depends on the individual and they do. For me, one is plenty. My King 2341 suits me fine because, in spite of being a tuba major in college, I have never played anything but BBb. Never heard the siren call of the CC, even though I played orchestra gigs, including a regular gig in a community orchestra. The conductor doesn’t know or care why key your horn is or which set of fingerings you use. Just that things sound correct. My horn in those days was either a Meinl Weston 25 or an Amati branded Cerveny. I used both horns in quintet work with no complaints. I suppose that it might have been nice to have a special quintet horn but I was poor. And still didn’t want to bother with learning a new set of fingerings. Now, the King satisfies me because it is a nice horn, I like that it’s made in USA, I acquired it for a fair price, and I only play for my own amusement so there are no worries about bringing the “wrong” horn to a rehearsal. But I would say that, for most players who gig, they could cover everything they might encounter with a large contrabass and a smaller bass, on their choice of key (BBb or CC, Eb or F, respectively). Like bloke said, for standing gigs maybe a Sousaphone or helicon, but I might be tempted to just use a strap or harness on one of my other horns instead.
King 2341 “new style”
Kanstul 902-3B
Conn Helleberg Standard 120
Kanstul 902-3B
Conn Helleberg Standard 120
-
humBell
- Posts: 2048
- Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:25 am
- Has thanked: 218 times
- Been thanked: 165 times
Re: Optimum number of horns
Isn't Optimum Tuba an autobot?
I stopped paying attention to transformers (of the hasbro variety) before i learned tuba...
Playing more than 1 tuba at a time sounds like a challange!
I stopped paying attention to transformers (of the hasbro variety) before i learned tuba...
Playing more than 1 tuba at a time sounds like a challange!
"All art is one." -Hal
-
bloke
- Mid South Music
- Posts: 19244
- Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:55 am
- Location: western Tennessee - near Memphis
- Has thanked: 3822 times
- Been thanked: 4078 times
Re: Optimum number of horns
Just for what it’s worth, I don’t robotically grab a C tuba if/when I judge that I need a contrabass tuba to play a piece with a symphony orchestra - particularly now that (very luckily/fortunately) I have such a fine B-flat as an alternate choice.
I’ve been known to use multiple instruments on the same work, but typically don’t do that. What I will do is to look at the very most exposed passages, and decide which instrument will get me through them with the most ease and to the best effect.
I’ve offered this example more than once, because it was the first time that I used my currently-owned B-flat tuba with a symphony orchestra, but Concerto for Orchestra features a prominent brass chorale (any good tuba with a good operator will do), and - for the tuba/bass trombone - features an extremely disruptive B-natural below the staff in the last movement, in the midst of a very quick dance in the strings just having gotten off to a really good start.
That pitch is just fine on a C tuba, but only involves about a foot of cylindrical tubing.
Of course, that pitch on a B-flat tuba – and assuming an easily-accessible valve combination which offers good tuning – calls for several feet of cylindrical tubing. The additional feet of cylindrical tubing defines tremendous potential for obnoxious brassiness (as the insertion of that pitch - played twice in a syncopated manner - is absolutely there to disrupt everything) to reinforce the bass trombone. For me, it was an easy choice to select the B-flat tuba, and certainly – being a piece written by an Eastern European composer – had it been first performed in the composer’s native country (though it was performed in Massachusetts first) - it’s very likely that it would’ve been played on a B-flat tuba, and the composer may have (??) even understood the mechanics and resonance of the B-natural on a B-flat tuba, when played quite loudly.
——————
To another point, I am more interested in the type of sound that I producing a symphony orchestra than anything else. I don’t see the purpose of a single (“solo bass/contrabass voice”) tuba in a symphony orchestra as needing to have a sonic characteristic defined as “imitating the sound of a pizzicato or bowed string bass”. Rather, I firmly believe that a tuba should sound like a tuba, and should easily be able to produce enough “fist“ in its sound to blend in with the “fist” of a loud trombone section. For me to achieve that “fist“ with those 6/4 “lap sousaphone” things - which have become so popular (and - lately - Chino-affordable) in the last 30 or 40 years - requires quite a few decibels more than are appropriate for even five desks of strong violinists - even with percussion roaring behind me. I’m not bragging on machismo, but just explaining why - roughly a decade ago - I walked away from the “6/4“ thing, as - at one time - there were actually four of those beasts sitting in this house. I will readily admit to enjoying looking at them and even enjoying playing them, but I just don’t believe they are the right thing for most symphonic applications. I also understand that they are tremendously in vogue in the United States with professional symphony orchestra tuba players (with me also believing that 99/100 American music directors just don’t give a crap re: what sort of tuba) and that this player-driven fad is growing across both ponds. Even a long-retired legendary player - who never ever used anything like that - is now posing in an advertisement with one of those things. I’m just not much of a group thinker, trend follower, or any of those types of things (and I am not criticizing anyone’s else choices, but only explaining my own), and never have been. That’s probably why it’s best that I am self-employed, and have been for my entire life.
———————
Going even farther with this absurdly long post, if/when tuba nerds might haplessly find themselves in an audience where I’m sitting in the back of an orchestra, they shouldn’t be surprised to see me playing a bass tuba where many others would be playing a contrabass tuba, and playing a B-flat baritone/euphonium type of instrument where most others might be playing an F tuba. finally, as I already emphasized the importance of being able to blend with the “fist” of the loud trombone section, my cimbasso does not collect dust, I do NOT wait to pull it out for 150-year-old Italian opera music – and will use it when I believe it will fit in the best, and YET I’m never accused of using it way too often.
I’ve been known to use multiple instruments on the same work, but typically don’t do that. What I will do is to look at the very most exposed passages, and decide which instrument will get me through them with the most ease and to the best effect.
I’ve offered this example more than once, because it was the first time that I used my currently-owned B-flat tuba with a symphony orchestra, but Concerto for Orchestra features a prominent brass chorale (any good tuba with a good operator will do), and - for the tuba/bass trombone - features an extremely disruptive B-natural below the staff in the last movement, in the midst of a very quick dance in the strings just having gotten off to a really good start.
That pitch is just fine on a C tuba, but only involves about a foot of cylindrical tubing.
Of course, that pitch on a B-flat tuba – and assuming an easily-accessible valve combination which offers good tuning – calls for several feet of cylindrical tubing. The additional feet of cylindrical tubing defines tremendous potential for obnoxious brassiness (as the insertion of that pitch - played twice in a syncopated manner - is absolutely there to disrupt everything) to reinforce the bass trombone. For me, it was an easy choice to select the B-flat tuba, and certainly – being a piece written by an Eastern European composer – had it been first performed in the composer’s native country (though it was performed in Massachusetts first) - it’s very likely that it would’ve been played on a B-flat tuba, and the composer may have (??) even understood the mechanics and resonance of the B-natural on a B-flat tuba, when played quite loudly.
——————
To another point, I am more interested in the type of sound that I producing a symphony orchestra than anything else. I don’t see the purpose of a single (“solo bass/contrabass voice”) tuba in a symphony orchestra as needing to have a sonic characteristic defined as “imitating the sound of a pizzicato or bowed string bass”. Rather, I firmly believe that a tuba should sound like a tuba, and should easily be able to produce enough “fist“ in its sound to blend in with the “fist” of a loud trombone section. For me to achieve that “fist“ with those 6/4 “lap sousaphone” things - which have become so popular (and - lately - Chino-affordable) in the last 30 or 40 years - requires quite a few decibels more than are appropriate for even five desks of strong violinists - even with percussion roaring behind me. I’m not bragging on machismo, but just explaining why - roughly a decade ago - I walked away from the “6/4“ thing, as - at one time - there were actually four of those beasts sitting in this house. I will readily admit to enjoying looking at them and even enjoying playing them, but I just don’t believe they are the right thing for most symphonic applications. I also understand that they are tremendously in vogue in the United States with professional symphony orchestra tuba players (with me also believing that 99/100 American music directors just don’t give a crap re: what sort of tuba) and that this player-driven fad is growing across both ponds. Even a long-retired legendary player - who never ever used anything like that - is now posing in an advertisement with one of those things. I’m just not much of a group thinker, trend follower, or any of those types of things (and I am not criticizing anyone’s else choices, but only explaining my own), and never have been. That’s probably why it’s best that I am self-employed, and have been for my entire life.
———————
Going even farther with this absurdly long post, if/when tuba nerds might haplessly find themselves in an audience where I’m sitting in the back of an orchestra, they shouldn’t be surprised to see me playing a bass tuba where many others would be playing a contrabass tuba, and playing a B-flat baritone/euphonium type of instrument where most others might be playing an F tuba. finally, as I already emphasized the importance of being able to blend with the “fist” of the loud trombone section, my cimbasso does not collect dust, I do NOT wait to pull it out for 150-year-old Italian opera music – and will use it when I believe it will fit in the best, and YET I’m never accused of using it way too often.
-
Dan Tuba
- Posts: 218
- Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2020 8:01 pm
- Location: Cameron, NC
- Has thanked: 89 times
- Been thanked: 79 times
Re: Optimum number of horns
From my experience, you can get most jobs done with one, but you can get more jobs done "better" with more than one 
Conn 25J
Holton Monster 3+1 EEb
Faxx 24AW
Holton Monster 3+1 EEb
Faxx 24AW
Re: Optimum number of horns
Here's the thing though: what does "a tuba" sound like? That concept has changed a lot since 1835, sometimes through advancements (does your tuba look like this?")bloke wrote: ↑Sat Jan 29, 2022 12:06 pm I don’t see the purpose of a single (“solo bass/contrabass voice”) tuba in a symphony orchestra as needing to have a sonic characteristic defined as “imitating the sound of a pizzicato or bowed string bass”. Rather, I firmly believe that a tuba should sound like a tuba, and should easily be able to produce enough “fist“ in its sound to blend in with the “fist” of a loud trombone section.
- Wieprecht & Moritz 1835
- 48843080676_af5541b8fe_c.jpg (67.52 KiB) Viewed 1794 times
...and partly through nationalistic tendencies (French v. German, etc), but also through the evolving mindset of composers whose conception of what "the tuba" was at any given moment in history.
In the whole of orchestral repertoire, sometimes the tuba is scored as a 4th trombone, sometimes as a string bass, sometimes a 5th horn, and sometimes even as a 4th trumpet. Not all of these different roles can be convincingly achieved using the same equipment to make "the tuba" sound.
-
bloke
- Mid South Music
- Posts: 19244
- Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:55 am
- Location: western Tennessee - near Memphis
- Has thanked: 3822 times
- Been thanked: 4078 times
Re: Optimum number of horns
I’m completely on board with the previous post, and I doubt that many of those composers wrote with this in mind:
“raincatcher sousaphone in C - reconfigured to physically resemble a tuba”.
“raincatcher sousaphone in C - reconfigured to physically resemble a tuba”.
-
jtm
- Posts: 1107
- Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2020 2:51 pm
- Location: Austin, Texas
- Has thanked: 698 times
- Been thanked: 209 times
Re: Optimum number of horns
I wish you'd stop saying that.
John Morris
This practicing trick actually seems to be working!
playing some old German rotary tubas for free
This practicing trick actually seems to be working!
playing some old German rotary tubas for free
-
bloke
- Mid South Music
- Posts: 19244
- Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:55 am
- Location: western Tennessee - near Memphis
- Has thanked: 3822 times
- Been thanked: 4078 times
Re: Optimum number of horns
Most people’s optimum number of lawnmowers is 1 as well, but quite a few people own weedeaters - even though they love to curse at them.
The more mowing any individual is expected to do – and the better the job they are expected to do at that mowing, the more likely it is that they are going to own more than one mower.
I even know individuals who own both a car and a pickup truck, if you can imagine that.
The more mowing any individual is expected to do – and the better the job they are expected to do at that mowing, the more likely it is that they are going to own more than one mower.
I even know individuals who own both a car and a pickup truck, if you can imagine that.
-
DonO.
- Posts: 674
- Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2021 11:12 am
- Location: Meadville, PA
- Has thanked: 252 times
- Been thanked: 259 times
Re: Optimum number of horns
Another consideration that hasn’t really been discussed is financial. Let’s face it, tubas are spendy. If you want several top quality horns for different purposes, you could easily be 50,000 plus. That’s serious change for a poor musician. In an ideal world we may want to have all those specialized instruments but in reality you might have to make do with 2 or even one and figure out how to make it work for you.
King 2341 “new style”
Kanstul 902-3B
Conn Helleberg Standard 120
Kanstul 902-3B
Conn Helleberg Standard 120
-
humBell
- Posts: 2048
- Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:25 am
- Has thanked: 218 times
- Been thanked: 165 times
Re: Optimum number of horns
What was that he should stop saying?
Sounds like a Tolkien parody might be entertaining...
That said, sorry for being glib rather than useful.
My circumstances is hardly applicable to most here, and even so, i am probably very far from optimized for anything, unless it is least effort on my part. A lazy optimization, as it were.
"All art is one." -Hal
Re: Optimum number of horns
Well, I know people that like both kinds of music, Country and Western.
Yamaha 641
Hirsbrunner Euph
I hate broccoli.
Hirsbrunner Euph
I hate broccoli.
-
Tim Jackson
- Posts: 214
- Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:16 pm
- Has thanked: 13 times
- Been thanked: 128 times
Re: Optimum number of horns
How many tubas... obviously, we are all so different. I have constructed a tool that may help you focus on reality. And may help you return from tuba dreamland... or at least get one foot on the floor.
Tim's Tuba Calculator
1. How many do you really need?
2. How many can the wife/family tolerate?
3. How much available space do you have?
4. Is it feasible to invest in these things?
5. How many do you REALLY love or can't bear to part with?
6. Quality of life gained if you sell some?
7. Quality of life gained if you buy some?
8. Available time to enjoy them?
9. Available time to play one really well?
10. How difficult will it be to get rid of them without a loss?
11. How difficult will it be for family members to sell at a yard sale?
12. Will your future liquidation require crating/shipping to recoup the investment?
13. Is something you always wanted something you really have time to use & enjoy?
We all have different criteria. My main concerns/wants & needs have changed over the years. At my delicate age, I now consider what I really want to do with my tuba playing for the next 5-10 years. I enjoy & have time for solos/chamber music. I am happy with a CB50 & a Yamaha 621 F along with my Conn sousa for strolling & dixie gigs. I love my 6/4 York and can't bear to part with it even though I have not had it out of the bag for months/years. Although if someone comes to me with the big bucks I will sell it. So, 4 horns for now... meaning I have stuff to sell which is a huge hassle as I'm in a remote tuba area and valuable horns have to be crated and shipped.
If I ever take an ensemble or orchestra gig the G50 will do fine. I will not hang on to 30K-50K worth of tubas just to have the perfect ensemble horn should I ever decide to take an orchestra gig. This is why I just sold my treasured 4/4 Nirschl - great all-around horn but for my solo playing the G50 is just as enjoyable. Same reason I sold my big Holton. Same reason I never invested in a large F. This is what's good for me - if my only musical outlet was tuba it would be different.
I love my bass work - electric & upright. These support the tuba habit. The basses are constantly asking why I spend so much on tubas that produce little or no income when they are pulling the load and begging for strings and a little polish.
The trombone, baritone & flugel-bone love affair is fading as I just don't have time - at best, I can get 2-3 hours in a day on tuba and value the results more than the yearning to play everything I ever brought home.
I have sold & will sell some nice instruments soon. Horns I thought I would have forever... nothing is forever including your ability to lift and blow.
Bottom line from the heart... with all this said... hell yea- buy as many as you can get away with!!!
TJ
Tim's Tuba Calculator
1. How many do you really need?
2. How many can the wife/family tolerate?
3. How much available space do you have?
4. Is it feasible to invest in these things?
5. How many do you REALLY love or can't bear to part with?
6. Quality of life gained if you sell some?
7. Quality of life gained if you buy some?
8. Available time to enjoy them?
9. Available time to play one really well?
10. How difficult will it be to get rid of them without a loss?
11. How difficult will it be for family members to sell at a yard sale?
12. Will your future liquidation require crating/shipping to recoup the investment?
13. Is something you always wanted something you really have time to use & enjoy?
We all have different criteria. My main concerns/wants & needs have changed over the years. At my delicate age, I now consider what I really want to do with my tuba playing for the next 5-10 years. I enjoy & have time for solos/chamber music. I am happy with a CB50 & a Yamaha 621 F along with my Conn sousa for strolling & dixie gigs. I love my 6/4 York and can't bear to part with it even though I have not had it out of the bag for months/years. Although if someone comes to me with the big bucks I will sell it. So, 4 horns for now... meaning I have stuff to sell which is a huge hassle as I'm in a remote tuba area and valuable horns have to be crated and shipped.
If I ever take an ensemble or orchestra gig the G50 will do fine. I will not hang on to 30K-50K worth of tubas just to have the perfect ensemble horn should I ever decide to take an orchestra gig. This is why I just sold my treasured 4/4 Nirschl - great all-around horn but for my solo playing the G50 is just as enjoyable. Same reason I sold my big Holton. Same reason I never invested in a large F. This is what's good for me - if my only musical outlet was tuba it would be different.
I love my bass work - electric & upright. These support the tuba habit. The basses are constantly asking why I spend so much on tubas that produce little or no income when they are pulling the load and begging for strings and a little polish.
The trombone, baritone & flugel-bone love affair is fading as I just don't have time - at best, I can get 2-3 hours in a day on tuba and value the results more than the yearning to play everything I ever brought home.
I have sold & will sell some nice instruments soon. Horns I thought I would have forever... nothing is forever including your ability to lift and blow.
Bottom line from the heart... with all this said... hell yea- buy as many as you can get away with!!!
TJ
- These users thanked the author Tim Jackson for the post:
- Ace (Sun Jan 30, 2022 2:12 pm)
-
kingrob76
- Posts: 635
- Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 9:24 am
- Location: Reston, VA
- Has thanked: 49 times
- Been thanked: 186 times
Re: Optimum number of horns
OPTIMAL for me is 3. One 6/4 CC, one small CC (3/4 or 4/4), and an Eb or F tuba for the parts where I need the upper range to be a bit more accessible.
I can and have absolutely make/made due with one 4/4, 5/4 or 6/4 CC. Not optimal, but, very simple and clean
I can and have absolutely make/made due with one 4/4, 5/4 or 6/4 CC. Not optimal, but, very simple and clean
Rob. Just Rob.
-
Bob Kolada
- Posts: 234
- Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:50 pm
- Location: Indiana
- Has thanked: 0
- Been thanked: 32 times
Re: Optimum number of horns
6
Big Bb tuba, big Eb tuba, small F tuba, bass trombone, cimbasso or contrabone, marching baritone (jazz).
At one point I owned a Conn Giant Eb, small King Eb, Kanstul contrabone, Getzen bass, Amati euph, Benge 190F, King tenor, contrabass trumpet, bass trumpet and a bass guitar.
All while barely playing anywhere. I've played in one group in the last 6 years, still own 2 Eb's, 2 euphs, a cimbasso, a bass trombone and a bass guitar; I only, and rarely, play the cimbasso anymore.
Big Bb tuba, big Eb tuba, small F tuba, bass trombone, cimbasso or contrabone, marching baritone (jazz).
At one point I owned a Conn Giant Eb, small King Eb, Kanstul contrabone, Getzen bass, Amati euph, Benge 190F, King tenor, contrabass trumpet, bass trumpet and a bass guitar.
All while barely playing anywhere. I've played in one group in the last 6 years, still own 2 Eb's, 2 euphs, a cimbasso, a bass trombone and a bass guitar; I only, and rarely, play the cimbasso anymore.-
bort2.0
- Posts: 5253
- Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 9:13 am
- Location: Minneapolis
- Has thanked: 336 times
- Been thanked: 999 times
Re: Optimum number of horns
@Tim Jackson -- for #8, that's on my mind already, too, and I'm only 41.
My next upcoming tuba is a big one, pretty much a now or never thing for me... If I can't handle it now, then I never will later. And I REALLY want to give it a go, have always wanted to use one of these. Gonna be a thrill, I think. Maybe for a little while, maybe for a long while. Will find out!
My next upcoming tuba is a big one, pretty much a now or never thing for me... If I can't handle it now, then I never will later. And I REALLY want to give it a go, have always wanted to use one of these. Gonna be a thrill, I think. Maybe for a little while, maybe for a long while. Will find out!