Another rant. This time staccato

[tubanh84]

The thread on pizzicato triggered a longstanding pedantic rant of mine. Thankfully this forum exists as a repository for my pedantic rants. Which I appreciate!

Staccato is not an articulation, because he has nothing to do with how you start a note. Staccato pertains to the end of the note. And it only requires separation, not necessarily "short"ness. You could feasibly have staccato whole notes. But it's easier to write dotted half quarter rest. Discuss.

TO ME, this is important, because if you think of staccato as an articulation, you try to START the note as a short note, which turns into stopping the note before you start it. Which results in tone-less pecking. If you think of it as a release, you have inherent permission to start the note, play a tone, and release it.

[bloke]

It’s really best when wind players are taught “staccato“ concepts and execution by string players.
Everything you said is true, but composers and arrangers abuse the marking and often mean other things by it. Therefore, it’s our job to figure out what is meant by the marking and what is best to do. Our ears and musical sensitivities/sensibilities will tell us whether a classical (ref: bowed string instrument) staccato is what is desired, or whether what is desired is just a very short sound.
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As a related remark, when we actually are expected to produce very short sounds, it’s very difficult for our instruments to match the shortness of which - as the most typical examples - the trombone is more easily capable. When matching very short sounds with trombones, I don’t hesitate to break any pedantic rules that may need to be broken - in order to shorten the length of those sounds.
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One final thought is that when march/polka/etc. bass lines are written with dots over the notes - YET there are rests following all the notes, it’s pretty obvious that the composer/arranger is requesting something beyond the classic/bowed-stringed-instruments meaning of the word “staccato“… and in jazz notation, a dot over a note - nearly always - just means “very short”.

[Jperry1466]

It’s really best when wind players are taught “staccato“ concepts and execution by string players.

William Revelli used to imitate a short draw of a bow on an imaginary violin when he was explaining staccato to an all-state group. It was very effective and got just the length he wanted. I used that illustration for years afterwards when teaching my own bands.

Many years ago, I played a staccato passage very short in a lesson with David Kuehn at North Texas. He tapped my music stand with his pencil and said, "that's how much tone you just got". Never forgot that, either - a good example of @tubanh84's reference to "tone-less pecking".

On the other hand, when playing in a polka band after everyone is well-oiled, that "pecking" doesn't seem to matter to anyone.

[bloke]

In another thread, I referred to that type of sound production as a “tut“.
Somehow, even our little group of fiberglass-sousaphone/no-lessons high school tuba players knew to almost always avoid doing that.

There are many exceptions, and to list all of them takes away from an individual‘s ability to use their best judgment.
An obvious exception is when playing in an indoor - or semi-indoor - venue with very long reverberation.

[tubanh84]

Our band director in college used the same excerpts for seating auditions every year. For tuba there was always the Toccata Marziale. I didn't leave college and win a professional audition (see: law school), but I also wasn't a bad player. I never, ever, never ever never played the opening (low octave!) short enough for him. There was solid daylight between the notes. By senior year I knew what he wanted and did my best to execute it. His sole note was invariable: Play it like Rafael Mendez. I never had the heart to tell him that Mendez was a trumpet player, and I sadly was playing a tuba.

In any case. What I played for him was staccato. He had something in his head that no tuba player I heard over four years, including grad students who DID go on to win pro auditions, could execute.

I believe, @bloke that he was looking for some solid tuts. First, I think that's wrong musically. Second, what he wanted was impossible on tuba. But we went in every year knowing that.

[bloke]

Just for the sake of arguing the other side, and NOT to disagree with you,

Our instruments tend to resonate so much - due to their size - that I believe that when we really exaggerate shortness (with the so-called “tut“), it may well SOUND to others like a “regular short sound“, even though - (physically) to us - it FEELS AS THOUGH we are actually sucking the sound back in - before it is even allowed to exit.

That specific passage - even though “marziale” means march - is not really a bass line to a march (as has been discussed earlier in the thread), and I can imagine why he might have wished to hear those pitches/notes be so very separated.

I earlier pointed out that there are quite a few exceptions to “avoiding a ‘tut’ sound”, and this may well (??) be one of them. Again, our instruments are very large, and it’s a chore to make them stop resonating quicker than they naturally tend to stop. It can be likened to trying to immediately stop the sound of a tam-tam, once someone has really whacked it.

(Even perfectly-adjusted rotor linkage (with perfect rotors) or brand-new piston felts can still end up causing a considerable amount of percussive noise, simply due to the size of our instruments.)

[humBell]

As rants go, this was short and to the point.

I actually don't know whether to be disappointed that my expectations were not met and my notion of rant subverted, or impressed at the form mirrors/expresses content...
Staccato rant is staccato, as described therein.

[tubanh84]

The trick is that if you're giving the rant in a live in-person setting, to refuse to breathe until you're done. The red face and bulging neck veins help TREMENDOUSLY.

[bloke]

see…??
Not only is NOT this new place inundated with Googleads, but we get useful realtime tips.

[rollo]

I am probably late to the party here, but Staccato is most certainly an articulation.

Articulation refers to how the note is sounded and includes factors like length, attack, shape, decay, release...

By this definition, where articulation ONLY refers to the very beginning of a note (what I would refer to as the attack), wouldn't tenuto also not be an articulation?

[Mary Ann]

It has been fascinating the difference in articulation markings required for strings and brass players. String players tend to slur everything and brass players tend to separate everything. Separate notes with lines over them are played completely differently by string players and brass players; the strings will have the barest of separations between the notes, and the brass players will leave enough space that you can drive a truck through it.

[bloke]

I’ve already said this at least a couple of times, but the word originated in bowed string playing as a way to work the bow to achieve a particular aural effect.

One of the primary reasons that band transcriptions of orchestral pieces often sound heavy/overbearing, is due to the failure to imitate the sound of the original meaning and execution of bowed string instruments articulation.

Further, stringed instrument bow markings have come to mean very different things - sound-wise - in wind instrument parts than in string parts - as MA emphasized.

In the finest orchestras, all the sections are basically one section, whereas - in the least successful orchestras - they only listen within their own sections

[York-aholic]

It has been fascinating the difference in articulation markings required for strings and brass players. String players tend to slur everything and brass players tend to separate everything. Separate notes with lines over them are played completely differently by string players and brass players; the strings will have the barest of separations between the notes, and the brass players will leave enough space that you can drive a truck through it.

I have often thought that a very useful resource for orchestrators/transcribers/arrangers would be if someone, that truly knew, made a chart of what string articulations translate to for wind instruments.

I'd buy it.

[bloke]

There are quite a few YouTube videos describing and demonstrating many of the various bowed instrument articulations.
Just as with anything, some of those videos are going to be better, but I have not really encountered a bad one.
It’s really easy to search “violin staccato“ on YouTube.

[Mary Ann]

There are quite a few YouTube videos describing and demonstrating many of the various bowed instrument articulations.
Just as with anything, some of those videos are going to be better, but I have not really encountered a bad one.
It’s really easy to search “violin staccato“ on YouTube.

And of course violin staccato is different from violin spiccato. Staccato is same-direction starts and stops with the bow (the notes you hear are when the bow bites down onto the string; and then it is released before the next bite down) and spiccato is back-and forth bouncing bow; both result in very short notes. You can see both here: (watch his right hand!)

[bloke]

There are nearly as many different types of violin articulations as there are vowels that singers use.
Concert band wind players…??
- tuh, duh, and uh.

[humBell]

There are quite a few YouTube videos describing and demonstrating many of the various bowed instrument articulations.
Just as with anything, some of those videos are going to be better, but I have not really encountered a bad one.
It’s really easy to search “violin staccato“ on YouTube.

And of course violin staccato is different from violin spiccato. Staccato is same-direction starts and stops with the bow (the notes you hear are when the bow bites down onto the string; and then it is released before the next bite down) and spiccato is back-and forth bouncing bow; both result in very short notes. You can see both here: (watch his right hand!)

I was gonna bring up spiccato in my own way...

Playing tremolo on the low bass strings is tough work, and i am lazy, so i often do the spicatto instead. I am sure the folk in charge notice, but probably don't care so much. (they are sharp... as in attentive, but are forgiving of many peculiarities)

[bloke]

There are quite a few YouTube videos describing and demonstrating many of the various bowed instrument articulations.
Just as with anything, some of those videos are going to be better, but I have not really encountered a bad one.
It’s really easy to search “violin staccato“ on YouTube.

And of course violin staccato is different from violin spiccato. Staccato is same-direction starts and stops with the bow (the notes you hear are when the bow bites down onto the string; and then it is released before the next bite down) and spiccato is back-and forth bouncing bow; both result in very short notes. You can see both here: (watch his right hand!)

I was gonna bring up spiccato in my own way...

Playing tremolo on the low bass strings is tough work, and i am lazy, so i often do the spicatto instead. I am sure the folk in charge notice, but probably don't care so much. (they are sharp... as in attentive, but are forgiving of many peculiarities)

possibly helpful tip:
According to ambulance chasers on TV, inhaling paraquat may possibly lead to Parkinson’s, which could possibly assist you with your tremelo technique.

[Three Valves]

I was hoping for tips on fixing the stucco on my house.

[bloke]

Bust it all off the house, and tack Dryvit up...
Give your house that 1980's strip-mall look...

I was hoping for tips on fixing the stucco on my house.

gotta LOVE styrofoam houses