Looking for info on my Meinl

[boilermaker]

I acquired a used Meinl-Weston over 30 years ago. At the time I was studying with Sam Green and he had a college student that was looking to upgrade so I got a good deal. Only markings I have found so far are on the
bell : W. Meinl-Weston Band Instruments No 1070
lead pipe: Made in Germany

See attached photos.

I enjoy playing the instrument and am part of a local community band. I'd like to know how old it is and a little bit more about it. Also looking for a good source to buy corks for the rotary valves and sources that I could get parts for the instrument in the future if it needs repairs.

bell v1.jpg (163.8 KiB) Viewed 2508 times

lead pipe.jpg (78.34 KiB) Viewed 2508 times

valves.jpg (131.73 KiB) Viewed 2508 times

[Oedipoes]

An overall picture of the instrument and some basic dimensions would help...

[boilermaker]

The bell has a diameter of 17 11/16" on the outside edges.
The height from the base to the top of the bell is ~41"

Attached is a photo of the tuba.

Thanks,

tuba.jpg (168.71 KiB) Viewed 2491 times

[bloke]

That is an earlier version of (or a predecessor of) the M-W model 25 - a 5/4-size instrument.
Anton Meinl still ran the operations in Geretsried, WEST Germany.
Don’t mess it up, because none of the parts - other than possibly some of the larger body parts - are going to be interchangeable with currently-made parts - which are now made in the B&S factory over near the Czech border.

[GC]

Are you sure it's not an earlier model 25 BBb? I'm looking at the internal bows and length of the valve tubing. The dimensions, especially the bell size, are 25-ish.

[bort2.0]

What key is it?

The model 30 is a C tube

[boilermaker]

It is a BBb

[bloke]

yeah… I said 25 when I was voice texting, but my phone interpreted 45, I posted that while sitting at a stoplight, and couldn’t check it.

A 25 is just a bit smaller than what would be called a “Kaiser“ orchestra tuba, but still sounds very much like the (better of the) Kaiser instruments.

[boilermaker]

So likely 1950s vintage?

I noticed some of my rotary valve corks are well worn. Would any cork/rubber stop work or is there a measurement I need to take to get the right size and/or type?

[bort2.0]

yeah… I said 25 when I was voice texting, but my phone interpreted 45, I posted that while sitting at a stoplight, and couldn’t check it.

A 25 is just a bit smaller than what would be called a “Kaiser“ orchestra tuba, but still sounds very much like the (better of the) Kaiser instruments.

And for a brief time, I was excited that an old 5/4, MW-45 CC model existed!

[KingTuba1241X]

So likely 1950s vintage?

I noticed some of my rotary valve corks are well worn. Would any cork/rubber stop work or is there a measurement I need to take to get the right size and/or type?

Nope 1965 and above vintage. I had one for a minute and sold it to a friend in Houston who plays alongside Doc in the British Band. Very hard to play, but the sound was pretty epic.

[bloke]

Everyone has their own way of doing neoprene rubber bumpers on cork plates. I prefer to take the cork plates off the instrument, put them in a no-teeth vice, and (with a fairly large screwdriver with a dull blade) stuff ("roll") neoprene that is way too large diameter all the way up into those “C”-shapes (bulging way out, as if pregnant), and then trim them down with a very sharp single edge razor blade, so there’s a nice handsome wide flat edge on the front (which offers the appearance of custom-shaped neoprene bumpers). Surely, there are hash marks on the rotor stems and bearings underneath the valve caps, yes?
Although I’ve already admitted to not being an expert, I would agree that there would be nothing from the 1950s bearing that name.

[DonO.]

I would agree that it’s absolutely a model 25. That’s the same horn I used as an undergrad 1974-78. The only difference being mine said “W. Meinl Weston A Division of Getzen” on the bell. The engraving was exactly the same as the model 30 Lee Stofer recently had for sale. I bought mine used, not sure of the year, but I think they were acquired by Getzen in the early 70’s (1972? 1973?), so I think this horn is most likely 60’s ? I switched out the cork for neoprene myself. I did it while the plates were still on the horn. Just disconnected the linkage and was really careful. I’m sure bloke is cringing! But I was lucky and I didn’t know any better. Also I remember the lead pipe on that thing being quite large. My American shank mouthpiece went up almost to the top of the shank. The MW mouthpiece that came with it fit properly but I didn’t like it. Again, I was young and stupid. It never occurred to me that I needed an adapter or that there even was such a thing. And I wasn’t aware of anyone supplying mouthpieces with different shank sizes. Maybe they were, maybe they weren’t. My teacher was a trombone guy (he taught all the brass at my little school) so not a tuba specialist so he was likely just as ignorant about tuba mouthpieces as I was. So I just made it work. I believed at the time that I had no choice. And I did well enough to graduate. I remember it being a dark sounding horn which sounded great in ensembles but not as good as a friend’s Mirafone (spelling at that time) 186 for solos. At some point after graduation I sold it to someone who was looking for that specific model (which tells me it has fans out there) and replaced it with an Amati that to me had a better “all purpose” sound- not too bright, not too dark, just right. I don’t know what the modern ones are like, but I wouldn’t consider the older MW 25 a “Swiss Army knife”, but for concert band or even a large orchestra, it should do very well.

[bloke]

I continue to state it I don’t know all of the facts and don’t have any documentation, but what I’ve heard was that “Meinl-Weston“ was some name that was invented by the Getzen Co. for instruments made in Europe that were domestically (in Europe) branded “Melton“, and made by Anton Meinl. I suspect (??) that Anton Meinl wasn’t particularly happy about engraving “a division of the Getzen Company” on the instruments that he fabricated, exported to the United States, and sold to Getzen.

Some of us remember that Getzen advertised these instruments on one black and white sheet of paper (with small albeit decently-engraved pictures), as opposed to “Mirafone’s” slick ten-page stapled brochures (though though Getzen’s black and white sheet was a little bit more easy to look at and grasp the complete model line). That having been said, the black-and-white page didn’t seem to make it particularly clear that the model 25 was considerably larger than the model 20, though the two models featured the same valveset. The model 20 was a little smaller than a Miraphone 186 (yet larger than a Miraphone 185 – roughly the size of a Rudolph Meinl 3/4), whereas the model 25 is larger. The black and white sheet - to which I refer - was created and printed after your tuba was made, and featured pictures of instruments with no bell krantz and with the current valveset configuration - with the #3 slide on the front.

Just as a reminder, don’t confuse the quantity of words here with any amount of actual authority - regarding the person who posted them.

[DonO.]

So, bloke, you’re saying that this horn was marketed and distributed in the US by Getzen, without saying “a division of Getzen”, by virtue of it being called Meinl-Weston rather than Melton? I wonder when they started to be engraved “a division of Getzen”. Did the business relationship change from distributorship to actual ownership at some point?

[bloke]

I've already posted more than I actually "know". If I thought that I might possibly know more about this (and some of what I've already posted is only "I think this might be right" stuff), I would have already posted it.
I'm not-at-all trying to be terse, but only trying to be properly humble - regarding my lack of verifiable facts, as well as my lack of known details or timelines.
I've restored a couple of those (from beat-up condition), but "having had them all apart" still doesn't make me an authority on the history of them.

nearly completely a non sequitur:
I have an old model 20 (probably the same age as your model 25) in the attic, but - in order to restore it - I need to get the kranz back on the bell - and that's a somewhat challenging ordeal. I also have an old (not as old as yours) model 25 (which FORMERLY featured the "Division of Getzen" jazz on the bell, and features the #3 circuit on the front), but the bell was completely trashed, and I have a brand-new John Packer (80:20 alloy) bell to put on it - once I get around to restoring it.

So, bloke, you’re saying that this horn was marketed and distributed in the US by Getzen, without saying “a division of Getzen”, by virtue of it being called Meinl-Weston rather than Melton? I wonder when they started to be engraved “a division of Getzen”. Did the business relationship change from distributorship to actual ownership at some point?

[Rick Denney]

So, bloke, you’re saying that this horn was marketed and distributed in the US by Getzen, without saying “a division of Getzen”, by virtue of it being called Meinl-Weston rather than Melton? I wonder when they started to be engraved “a division of Getzen”. Did the business relationship change from distributorship to actual ownership at some point?

Getzen never owned anything more than the U.S. distributorship of Meinl-Weston instruments. As a big distributor, I'm sure they had a lot of influence, but never an ownership position, at least not one that gave them corporate control.

Wenzel Meinl Gmbh was the manufacturer of Meinl-Weston/Melton instruments, and it was largely family owned until Gerhard Meinl formed TA Musik in 1991 to buy VMI/B&S from the East German state after unification. TA stood for Triumph-Adler, the main investor. By 2001, Gerhard and management partners in the company had bought out Triumph-Adler, and formed JA Musik to be the holding company over what he had renamed to be B&S Group. JA Musik sold the group to Buffet Crampon in 2012, and they own it still. Here's a summary on their web page, which includes a neat picture:

https://www.melton-meinl-weston.com/en/our-story/



The old Wenzel-Meinl workshop in Geretsried is still there, as the "Wenzel-Meinl House of Music". Google maps still shows it as "Wenzel-Meinl Gmbh" at Seniweg 4, 82538 Geretsried. But it is owned by Buffet Crampon, who now show it as a store and showroom/museum. If they have a workshop there, it is probably for repairs and restorations only, but that is pure speculation on my part. As Joe says, the main manufacturing is in Markneukirchen.

In those days, there were lots of import duties and tariffs designed to mollify American companies and their lobbyists--er--elected representatives. I suspect that Getzen was trying to distinguish the manufacturer from the U.S. brand as part of a scheme to minimize what they had to pay to import the instruments. A lot of those tariffs have been eliminated in the decades since then.

Rick "the cottages containing the cottage industry are smaller than we would expect, except maybe for Miraphone eG" Denney

[bloke]

I'M ALSO NOT AN AUTHORITY ON THIS, EITHER:

It's my understanding that - shortly after reunification - Gerhardt Meinl was offered (ie. "given") the B&S factory in exchange for keeping it open (ie. preserving desperately-needed-to-be-kept-in-place eastern-region German jobs).

Once that occurred, I believe (??) that I observed - over time - (at first) hybrid models ("VMI", etc.) being manufactured - some of which seemed to be Geretsried-shaped bodies with pasted-on Markneukirchen-shaped valvesets, (not long after) modernization of B&S instruments (ie. different rotors, hydraulically-formed bows, etc.), and (not long after that) known-to-have-been Geretsried-made models being completely manufactured in Markneukirchen (with non-interchangeable parts). Eventually, email addresses (to Geretsried) were no longer working addresses - ie. "people apparently let go", etc. ...and this was ALL before Buffet got into the picture.

Visitors tell me that Geretsried is still a functioning facility, but a couple of insiders have told me that (though there are people, tools, and instruments there) that (mostly...??) "Geretsried is now to Meinl-Weston as Elkhart (mailing address) now is to Conn".

Mr. Meinl was/is an excellent businessman, and I can't imagine (during the reunification chaos) him seeing an amazing long-term opportunity to produce products of EQUAL quality, YET for MUCH lower cost to him... ie. "Hey Mr. Meinl, how would you like for us - the German government - to GIVE you a factory (already outfitted with tools, skilled employees, and a good reputation) near the Czech border (analogy: "in the middle of Mississippi, where wages are quite low"), so that - bit-by-bit - you can shut down your western German (analogy: "New York City types of wages") facility, and migrate all of your production to the east?

seemingly, a no-brainer, and - had he been athletic - possibly would've done back-flips.

AGAIN: I AM NOT A HISTORIAN, AND EVERYTHING POSTED ABOVE MAY POSSIBLY BE ABSOLUTELY WRONG. PLEASE DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH, AND DO NOT QUOTE ANY OF MY NON-RESEARCHED AND NON-VERIFIED GUESSES !!!

[KingTuba1241X]

So, bloke, you’re saying that this horn was marketed and distributed in the US by Getzen, without saying “a division of Getzen”, by virtue of it being called Meinl-Weston rather than Melton? I wonder when they started to be engraved “a division of Getzen”. Did the business relationship change from distributorship to actual ownership at some point?

http://www.iteaonline.org/members/histo ... ?page=bell

That will tell you a bit. But Oskar Kasperski originally brought these (like the OP's) horn to the U.S. for purchase/marketing and distribution back in the early to mid 1960's. He apparently drove a few of these horns around in his Volkswagen bug marketing them to some of the people mentioned in that article. If they have that odd bent leadpipe, s-links and no "Division of Getzen" on the bell under the name...they are pre-1970's but not really earlier than say 1964-1965.

[DonO.]

This is all great information! Thanks to all. I had always been curious about my first horn, even though I sold it 35 years ago. I still have a soft spot in my heart for it, kind of like the first time you fall in love. I had always thought that “a division of Getzen” implied actual ownership, but it makes much more sense as some kind of legal maneuver to minimize import fees and tariffs.