basstrombasso

[Bob Kolada]

JC Sherman built me an Eb thing years ago. I bought a 3 valve King baritone set from Ian and JC used a G marching baritone bell and a bunch of .562 tubing. In hindsight .59x probably would have been better; it's a little stuffy with a Josef Klier KBP2C, I think something bigger will be better. I can't seem to post pictures here. It has 2 tuning slides- one in the leadpipe to set overall length (I think I can get a stock length slide and play the horn in E natural) and a long, reversed Marzan style slide.

I like the horn but it's more of a chamber instrument than a jazz band bass bone. I think a different mp will help. I went with a 3 valve Eb to get low Bb with a cheap valve set (50 bucks, iirc). Intonation is pretty good, slightly flat open G, very flat F. I want to get the bottom 1st valve slide shortened so I can push in the top, faster than the big slide.

Here's a pic from his site-
https://www.jcsherman.net/variations-in-brass

[Bob Kolada]

An interesting consideration with that long pull slide would be to get the slides aligned and smooth, and throw a kicker on it.

I’m pretty sure one of the older big name bass trombone guys had a similar setup on a 72H. Maybe George Roberts had this?

Thein makes/made one for the B-F gliss. Ben van Dijk wrote about his; iirc the kicker is on the thumb and the actual valve on the middle finger.

[bone-a-phone]

I'm a little late to this discussion, but I find it interesting.

The original Olds being considered is an Olds S20 I think. I used one of those and replaced the single valve with a dependent valve set from a King 6b. It was a really rippin' bass bone. The memorable work I played with that was Holst's Perfect Fool. Bass bone and tuba have a lot of complex meter bass line figures together, and we laid it down. The tuba player was on something pretty standard like a Yamaha ybb321 or there abouts. Don't let the odd dimensions and specs fool you, that S20 can honk, and it doesn't need a huge mouthpiece. And of course the TIS is just a bonus.

About the main project, though, very interested in that. The ones I've seen have used some sort of F tuba valves and a marching baritone cone end.

I love to watch the selection of the parts, and then the parts come together to make something you can use in a group. But more than anything, I love the hear the final result play. That's what it's all about after all. Horn porn has an audio aspect to it, I guess.

Also, I have to admit to a bit of a trombone player's bias. We tend to think it's ...maybe a bit ... barbaric... to lip notes into tune. Saying that in a tuba forum isn't a great way to make friends, but we think god gave us slides for a reason. Even with 5 valves, you'd still need to adjust some notes. Is there a plan for access to hand tuning on the basstrombasso? Is it 5v on the right hand, or maybe one on the left with a tuning lever?

[bloke]

I'm a little late to this discussion, but I find it interesting.

I only tagged you to let you know that I'm responding to your post (and thanks for expressing your interest/curiosity via your post).

I do not-at-all mean to be didactic in my response, but bullet points will shorten my response, and eliminate some space-consuming rhetoric.

- I don't know how this thing will turn out. The longer I keep it (unless I have no use for it), the more will be a hint to others that the project will have been a success.

- I'm motivated to build this, as - during the last four-and-a-half decades - I've bought three bass trombones, and attempted to master "the slide" so-as to be a viable double. I just don't have time (to master it to my personal satisfaction). One challenging gig was when that Richard Webster guy (brass settings for Episcopal hymns) was brought into a (ironically) Baptist church to do a brass-and-choir concert. I had to steadfastly practice for two weeks, to play that gig (on bass trombone) whereas I could have sightread the gig on compensating euphonium. I sold my third-and-last bass trombone, after playing that job. ex's:
https://www.advent-press.com/images/Rec ... 20clip.mp3
https://www.advent-press.com/images/Rec ... 20clip.mp3

- I'm using an old Yamaha YBL-322 bell section, because (and don't laugh at me too much, even though I flail around with the playing slide on the trombone)
> I was seeking a pre-current-era Conn-sounding bell section (as that's my personally-favorite type of bass trombone sound).
> I bartered for this one, with an extremely favorable barter (whereby both of us are happy with our trade).
> Being a Conn knockoff, the Yamaha bell section sounds much more like a Conn than does that old-old Olds bell section (as the Olds features a smaller diameter rim, smaller throat and - when I might choose to use it - considerably smaller F-attachment bore, as you yourself admit to discarding that portion of your Olds bell section).
> The slide-tuning duo-bore Olds playing slide is very repairable, and actually taper-fits (though will not bolt up to) the Yamaha bell section. Play-tests offer pleasing results, and good tuning. (I will probably purchase a Yamaha male connector and fit it to the Olds playing slide. ALSO, there is a Yamaha playing slide tube that is within .001" of being as large - .599" vs. .598" - as the Olds lower-inside, as the Olds lower-inside slightly suffers from chrome wear...so I might also swap out that tube for a Yamaha tube.

- ALL OF THAT HAVING BEEN SAID, the vast majority of the time, I will use the (probably 4+2, and not just 4+1 - as 4+2 will offer better intonation on B/E (64 combination, as well as a 5634 probably-in-tune low C), and may well also install a RIGHT-HAND THUMB TRIGGER for the valve section's main slide (depending on how many quirky intonation issues, and the severity of them).

Moreover, I am not interested in a curiosity/toy, but am interested in owning/using something that is capable of offering me very reliable/easily-accessible perfect (if I'm allowed to claim to hold myself to that standard...??) intonation, and with a viable/marketable/salable bass trombone resonance.
=============================================

- My two highest-paying annual church jobs feature MORE bass trombone parts that tuba parts (which - for years - I've covered on compensating euphonium - with a bass trombone mouthpiece).

- One of my per-service orchestras has ALREADY established the precedent of allowing me (when a concert doesn't involve tuba, but involves trombones) to cover third trombone, whereas the bass trombonist has sincerely indicated that - at such times - they would be delighted to move up to 2nd (as - oddly - the second chair has never been filled by a permanent person), and to allow me to cover the 3rd trombone folder. On Schubert X, I covered the 3rd part (with F cimbasso) very successfully, but - when future similar opportunities arise - I would PREFER to cover 3rd parts on a 9-feet B-flat trombone-sounding instrument, rather than a 12-feet F instrument.


talk about an "odd trio" of E-flat / B-flat / F: Conn / Thein / bloke-made

bloke "who is aware that bass trombonists tend to be just a bit triggered (pun intended) when tuba players attempt to devise ways to take work away from them"

[bone-a-phone]

Yeah, I would not want to have to learn to play a slide as a second instrument. It's a language all unto its own. Each position is slightly different for each partial, it can get overwhelming.

I'm actually a tenor trombone player, and a high tenor at that. But where I live there's a glut of tenor players and a dearth of bass and tuba players. So even though I prefer the upper parts, I play a lot of lower stuff just so that all the parts can get covered. I do play a little tuba, but I can tell you with some certainty that I'm not taking work away from anyone on tuba. It's strange how many MDs ask to cover tuba parts on bass bone, though.

I find all the valve combination stuff pretty fascinating. My favorite valve instrument is the Conn 24i, the 4v non-compensating euphonium with the tuning mechanism on the mts. That's my idea of how valve instruments should work. Simplifies the number of valves for a fully chromatic instrument and minimizes the weight of the horn, but allows you perfect intonation with a slide adjustment.

The 72h is a well loved horn. Really one of the best all around bass bones ever made. I've never played the Yammy copy, but that is also a well loved model. My ideal would be an Elkhart 62h, but everybody and their brother wants one of those, so hard to find. as a lot of people cannibalize them for other projects. People say they love the 62h, but they don't want TIS, they don't want small rotors, they don't want dependent valves, don't want the saxophone-ish roller thumb levers, and they don't like the narrow slide. So they like the idea of the 62h, but don't really like the 62h.

I play a Kanstul 1662i, similar idea to the 62h, but independent, open wrap, and minimized bracing. And of course TIS, which gives a different character altogether.

Very nice recordings, by the way. Nothing like brass and pipe organ. Really a great sound. Those sound like a Rutter thing I played a few years back.

Looking forward to what happens. Especially in the Bb vs F department.

[bloke]

I respect Elkhart Conn bass trombones too much to use them for a project such as this (even though I wouldn’t be chopping one of them up at all). I believe those who are “real“ bass trombonists should own those, and not me.
I listened to the Yamaha 322 knockoff (when testing it), heard the great similarity in the sound (to my Conn memory/concept), and knew that that using it for this project would be a good tack.
There is a bass trombone player friend/colleague named Chris Beaudry - who showed up for an orchestra concert with a 62H from Elkhart, and sounded like an angel. Of course, those are based on the legendary single-rotor 70H, which are unicorns - particularly if with original lacquer.

[bone-a-phone]

...Of course, those are based on the legendary single-rotor 70H, which are unicorns - particularly if with original lacquer.

Most of the "real" bass trombone players I know don't want 62h, even though they claim to revere it. They want bigger indy valves, open wraps, D tuning, split levers, bell tuning. You still see them being played from time to time, but not often, and very rarely stock.

I owned a 1930's 70h with the 547/562 dual bore slide. That horn had been played hard. The mouthpiece receiver was worn large and the slide was actually loose. I don't think it had any actual damage, but all the moving parts were worn out. I grew up on an 88h, so the Conn sound/feel is just the default in my head. That's one of the horns I've sold that I wish I could have back. I added and Eb extension to the valve (just a replaceable slide, so no actual changes to the horn), so it was fully chromatic with one valve, but you had to use 6th and 7th positions, which most players these days refuse to do.

Those horns also have the extra long slides for 7+ position. The dual bore slide was stock for a couple of years, and played more to the strengths of doubling tenor players, requiring less air. They literally don't make them like that any more. Even single valve basses these days come in two sizes: huge and friggin' huge. There's no middle of the road any more with bass trombone. That was one of the reasons I liked the Olds - it was a tweener size, very efficient with the air. Pre-1960 you really could get by on bass bone with a single valve and an E pull. It's harder these days, but depending on where you play (orchestras that don't play new stuff and big bands that don't play stuff written after the 60s/70s) you can still get by pretty well.

Anyway, well off topic by now. Best of luck with the basstrombasso.

[bloke]

Most of the "real" bass trombone players I know don't want 62h, even though they claim to revere it. They want bigger indy valves, open wraps, D tuning, split levers, bell tuning. You still see them being played from time to time, but not often, and very rarely stock.

noted...and so many of them (including extremely fine ones - who play with impeccable intonation and phrasing) sonically put forth "blah-blah-blah" on newer-style bass trombones...again: even when completely correct - neither bad nor special (and I'm referring to people whose playing I cannot emulate, as they are remarkably accomplished players)...

...but the same thing has occurred with several other types of orchestral instruments , whereby many newer designs toss "bel canto" out the window, in favor of "easy" and "loud" (...oh yeah, and "modular"...Modular's really cool).

bloke "or so my right ear perceives"

[bone-a-phone]

I really didn't intend to swap posts like this, but it's interesting to see things from a valve point of view sometimes.

My favorite bass players (Ben Van Dijk, Blair Bollinger, Gerry Pagano, Max Siegel) all play fancy boutique horns. (Thein, Shires, Edwards and M&W respectively, last I knew). But you really can't argue with their results. Max used to play on an old Holton not that long ago. (Old Holtons like the 169, 185, 180 singles have a cult following all their own). His style is easier for me to relate to than the rest of the more orchestral players. Although he plays other stuff, I know him as a chamber player. http://weathervest.com/music

I personally wrestle with the bass. I play it out of necessity, and find it hard to make it into a melodic instrument instead of (the way most college students play it) a percussion instrument. That's why I prefer tenor's sweet melodic sound. I dabble in tuba because I like the texture and the way the thing makes every cavity in your body vibrate. These guys listed above really make bass bone sing in a way I'll never touch, but admire every time.

[bloke]

Though I've have the pleasure of working with other superb bass trombonists, I've only worked with two exceptionally fine ones who I heard first on a typical piece of current-era equipment and then on vintage Conn equipment.

Chris Beaudry, (several Boston orchestras, plus the IRIS Orchestra - when JR is tied up with his quintet) and Scott Cochran (Richmond Symphony)...

...The old Conn instruments (with both of these superb players) raised my eyebrows.

Chris' current publicity photo is with his Conn.

Again: I'll never come anywhere close to playing third trombone parts as nicely as either of those two gents.

[bloke]

For undergrad, my lesson teacher was a bass trombone player. He sounded best on a 62H.

He was (likely still is, albeit in his late 70s) a solid player, a student of Don Yaxley at Stetson before he went off to IU in the early 1970s.

He was a “UMI” artist back in the 80s and 90s. He endorsed the Benge 290, likely because it was the only thing in the catalog at the time that sounded anything like an older Conn.

He also had some Larry Minnick invention that had early Thayer valves that was an absolute beast. But I think the bell was still from a Conn, likely a 72H.

Nonetheless, a good balance was struck with those horns. I’m wondering how close those Doug Yeo Yamahas are compared to the old Conn trombones, as his sound concept fits well within that realm.

[bloke]

A storm is brewing !!!

[bloke]

I have now collected up enough crap for this future project, that it’s all now in a big cardboard box.
I guess I could start rounding up levers for the two rotary valves as well, but I don’t know what those are going to look like yet, and I have plenty of that type of crap in the barn.

[bloke]

OK...
After some soul-searching, I've decided to go with NORMAL-sized buttons and (not only not green, purple, red, blue, black, nor abalone, but) with NO pearls.

I'm concerned, though that
- the freak jury will be nonplussed.
- the low range response will suffer.
- the LACK of a requirement of stiff springs - for fast valve action (with less-heavy finger buttons on board) - will make it feel "cheap" and "insubstantial", and I always prefer that my playing seem "expensive" and "substantial".



I finally (just now, for the picture) got the jammed #1 piston out of the casing.
good news: The piston isn't bent (works fine in other casings) and the casing itself is only slightly "jacked"...so no biggie.

Please pray that I made the correct choice, here. I'm asking for the guidance of omnipotent knowledge, regarding this issue.

[matt g]

My big horn has MAW valves with those titanium stems and lightweight buttons. The springs are barely strong enough to hold the valves up when the horn is resting flat. And the valve action is light and sublime.

[bloke]

This has occurred to me all along, but this is something that - I suspect - doesn’t occur to too many other people (who might think about the possibility of building something like this) :

Yes, it has valves instead of a slide, but one still hast to learn how to play the music, oh yeah: and learn how to play it well. Otherwise, this is nothing more than a toy.

Restated:
Once I finally find the time to get this thing assembled, my work will have just begun.

[bloke]

One of my objectives - when building stuff for myself - is to not buy a bunch of stuff nor spend much money.

I always end up spending something, but my objective is to try to pull parts from the blokeattic and for most of the expense be in my time.

For the 5th and 6th valves (unlike the F-attachment on a bass trombone, which is usually a good bit larger bore than the typical bass trombone PLAYING slide bore of .562") I wanted to find two GOOD CONDITION rotors with some COMPATIBLE TUBING that is NOT much larger bore than the rest of the (on this instrument: .562") valve section, because they are NOT F-attachment rotors, and both are to be located BEFORE the bell section.

The two rotors (seen in the previous pictures) would "do", but I don't have much tubing in that size, and - further - they're really too large (one being c. .580" (14.75mm) bore, and the other being c. .590" (15mm) bore.

I could BUY a couple of F-attachment valves for a (.547" playing slide bore) large bore tenor (as those F-attachments are usually .562"), but I don't want to buy a bunch of mess...so I kept thinking.

Last night (trying to fall asleep after the cimbasso pops concert) I realized the solution:

In the blokeattic are two 1950's (undersized, by today's standards) F. E. Olds bass trombone bell sections.
The bells are only 9 inches in diameter, somewhat small-throated, they were (playing slides, which I've already repurposed) duo bore in the playing slide (.554" - .564"), and the F-attachments are ALSO .564" bore. BINGO !!!
Further, Olds rotors are damn good quality, and these didn't get much use. FURTHER, the F-attachment tubing (for harvesting) is IDEAL for my purposes.

"...but bloke, you're wasting two perfectly good bass trombone bell sections."
Nope...These were never popular. They are undersized, tinny-sounding, and (with a normal 7-position playing slide) play QUITE FLAT (ie. These were wretched instruments, though well-made.)
I might use the bells (bells only) on some school-owned large bore TENOR trombones - when students trash those bells, and band directors ask me "ok...What can you do with THIS, bloke...!?!?"





These "projects":
If I do a LITTLE BIT - EVERY ONCE IN A WHILE - they were eventually get CLOSE ENOUGH to the finish line so as I can usually find a little bit of time to go ahead and push them TO the finish line.

"hey bloke, WHY are you doing this...??"
I'm growing weary of covering bass trombone parts with my euphonium. I'd like to try covering bass trombone parts with something more like a bass trombone. I'm a reasonably strong 9-foot B-flat valved-instrument reader/player. If this thing doesn't suck, I'll be able to play it.
also, this: Since I already have demonstrated (Schubert IX) that I can do a really nice job of covering Trombone III parts with my F cimbasso (and the same per-service orchestra's 2nd trombone chair has never been formally filled), the handshake agreement is that - when there are no tuba parts on a concert, I move up to Trombone III, and the bass trombone player moves up to Trombone II - so we three "regulars" all continue to receive paychecks. If this contraption ends up doing a better job for me (vs. the F instrument) of covering Trombone III parts, all the better.

[bone-a-phone]

I've cut up at least one of those Olds single valve bass bones, but I reused all the parts you are throwing away, and threw away all the parts you are using. The valves have a funky mechanism, and are sometimes sprung internally with clock springs, and they are small. If you put the valves closer to the mouthpiece and use some other lever system, that will make less difference. The bells make great "tweener" (between bass and tenor) bone for small basses.

I wish you'd hurry up and get going on this. I've been thinking of something similar, and need to start collecting stuff, but I need to make sure it works first. I'd rather learn from your mistakes than my own.

[bloke]

You're going to be disappointed, because I just don't ever seem to make any mistakes...

[bloke]

The main tuning slide bow arrived today...
It's the same as the lower #3 tuning slide bow, as the bore CONTINUES to be .562" BEFORE the bell section (just as with any other bass trombone).

Further, that width of slide bow is neither narrow nor wide (ie. "medium") so that the bell won't end up too far out to the left (hopefully: NOT hanging way off my left shoulder).



...and - if I decide that this bow is still too wide - I have some old .547" bore trombone F-attachment tuning slide crooks, and the bore size of those F-attachments is ALSO .562"

bloke "Cimbassi are not particularly exciting visually - only aurally."