nature vs. nurture

[bloke]

My granddaughter is no prima donna/virtuosa/protege at age 12, but she call play all of Mozart 3 (plus a cadenza) on the horn, and is headed to Interlochen, this summer.

Her Dad's day-job is playing horn in this orchestra, both of his parents are professional horn players, and both of his sisters played horn:



In spite of all of that, I vote "nurture".

[York-aholic]

As a long time educator, I vote that’s it is some of both.

[Jperry1466]

As a long time educator, I vote that’s it is some of both.

As a fellow long-time music educator, I vote with York-aholic. That level of achievment requires both. I have had crazy talented students who just wouldn't push themselves, and then I've had kids who were very intelligent but had only average talent who were disciplined and worked their butts off. One of the latter was a three-time all stater and is now head of percussion at Temple University and subs with the Philadelphia Orchestra.

My grandson plays trumpet (well, I tried) in his 6th grade beginner band. At his first concert, the director commented several times about how talented this year's group seems to be. When I introduced myself to the him afterward, I found two other retired band director friends there who also had grandkids in the band. I figured the gene pool ran pretty deep in that group.

I would love to hear your 12-year-old granddaughter play. She is, of course, light years ahead of my 12-year-old grandson. You have every reason to brag.

[bloke]

I have spoken many times about my high school friend who actually was my most influential tuba teacher, because he was a natural player who played at a professional level (with a Conn 36K fiberglass sousaphone) since the ninth grade or so.

He had no ancestors who did anything with music. His father (who died of leukemia, when my friend was in elementary school) was a brakeman for a railroad, his mother was a nurse, his grandparents were probably subsistence farmers, but he had a bass voice and sang the bottom line in a shaped notes hymnal at church with no organ - where everyone sang out loudly in four part harmony, because there was no booming organ to cloak timid singing. He was motivated to master the tuba, because he viewed it as a way to avoid being sent to Vietnam, and he realized that – from church – he understood “bass”… and he never had a private studio tuba lesson, until he entered the Navy school of music upon high school graduation.

I agree that some people - such as my friend - require less coaching, but he was extremely motivated and he dif have a strong model, the harmony singing in church every single week - and he went to a Pentecostal church, so their services were very long and they sang many songs.

bloke “nurture, overwhelmingly, in my view”

[Mary Ann]

The talent has to be there before the nurture can do anything. My sister was literally tone deaf and I have perfect pitch. No WAY she was going to be any good at music even though she was encouraged to try. She had to be taught to (attempt to) carry a tune, and I was playing things by ear on the piano at three. Without the nurture I'd still have managed to learn instruments, but the musical nurture would have been a waste of money for my sister, who got ice skating lessons instead.

[York-aholic]

As a long time educator, I vote that’s it is some of both.

As a fellow long-time music educator, I vote with York-aholic. That level of achievment requires both. I have had crazy talented students who just wouldn't push themselves, and then I've had kids who were very intelligent but had only average talent who were disciplined and worked their butts off. One of the latter was a three-time all stater and is now head of percussion at Temple University and subs with the Philadelphia Orchestra.

My grandson plays trumpet (well, I tried) in his 6th grade beginner band. At his first concert, the director commented several times about how talented this year's group seems to be. When I introduced myself to the him afterward, I found two other retired band director friends there who also had grandkids in the band. I figured the gene pool ran pretty deep in that group.

I would love to hear your 12-year-old granddaughter play. She is, of course, light years ahead of my 12-year-old grandson. You have every reason to brag.

Also on the nurture side of things, in your grandson’s band’s example, those families all exposed the kiddos to a love of music that many, many kids don’t get these days.

Think back to the time of the Romantic era. Families played chamber music together in the fashion that my family played cards or monopoly and as families now a days play video games: as a way to pass the evening hours and for family bonding.

Yikes (video games)

[bort2.0]

Congratulations to her!

It's a little bit of a lot of things, and nature vs nurture goes both ways.

I'd argue that opportunity to learn has a great deal to do with it as well. Your granddaughter has had access to music, a safe home, and live with a family who has the means to pursue artistic careers. Not to mention, the home life that supports it -- perpetual understanding of weird schedules of performances, rehearsals and people not all home at the same time, $,$$$+ on instruments, teaching lessons, endless schooling, and just to say it again, lots and lots of time with a parent (two?) with a goofy schedule that's not 9 to 5... From birth.

That's not something you are born with. But if you are raised that way, that's all your version of normal ever is, and it's how you will live too (at least for a while). She has had every opportunity, through exposure and support to learn how to be a professional horn player. Sounds like she's well on her way, if she decides she wants to do that.

Nature equips people with a lot of traits, and many of them are thought to be latent. "Musical talent" is a trait that may not really be evident UNTIL there is an opportunity to present it. I guess there's singing... But lots of musicians on other instruments don't love to sing, and may not be amazing at it. But if Jimmy down the hall has never had a chance to play guitar, and somehow ends up holding one... And very easily starts to sound things out and play them on the instrument... That's not because of nurture, that's because of an inherent musical talent.

The nurture part follows... And is totally necessary. Natural talent will only get you so far before you'll get overtaken by the hard workers. People don't always pursue natural talent to it's end, either. I think that's just part of being human, too. Just because you're good at something doesn't mean you want to do it, and you have free will to not do it.

Your granddaughter could be the next horn player in the NY Phil when what's his name finally retires... Or she could turn 16 and think "well, that was fun, I want to be a surgeon instead" and be super successful at something else, and never touch the horn again.

Enjoy it now. Nurture it. But realize that she'll do what she'll do. Many excellent musicians are also hella smart in other ways too. Some, even, smart enough to not be musicians.

[bloke]

She needs to stay out of the music business.
That having been said, a lot of people need to do a lot of things.

[bort2.0]

She needs to stay out of the music business.
That having been said, a lot of people need to do a lot of things.

[hrender]

She needs to stay out of the music business.
That having been said, a lot of people need to do a lot of things.

In honor of Roger Lewis...

"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." -- Hunter S. Thompson

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/487242

[Mary Ann]

[quote=York-aholic post_id=41662 time=1649996258 user_id=200

Think back to the time of the Romantic era. Families played chamber music together in the fashion that my family played cards or monopoly and as families now a days play video games: as a way to pass the evening hours and for family bonding.

Yikes (video games)
[/quote]

On that....my mother played piano; didn't have a lot of training but was musical and competent as long as it wasn't extremely difficult (had accurate rhythm and way better musicality than most amateurs I now play with, who tend to have a lot of technique and don't even understand how to play musically, or in tune.) We played together almost nightly for years, with her accompanying me playing the violin. That is nurture. It needs to be about enjoyment, and I have never liked how "music" has seemed to morph into "competition" as if it were a sport. It's not a sport and shouldn't be treated as one with "contests." Competition pretty much ruined it for me, and my preference still is to find a chamber ensemble to play with just for the enjoyment of it; everything from the just-started-up WW trio to our long-standing brass quintet, to the TE quartet I used to get to play bass tuba in.

[bloke]

My Dad never got particularly good at reading complicated musical figures, but he could listen to them and copy them, which is why he was usually second or third (never first chair) 1st clarinet in his high school band in Pittsburg, Kansas (this was back during the JJ Richards era).
My Mom liked music, did not have a “solo“ type of voice, sang in the chorus in some musical productions in high school - including The Mikado, skipped school to go catch a Cab Calloway matinee in her hometown of Davenport Iowa – by the way: She lived about three blocks away from Bix Beiderbecke, and picked up guitar beginning in her mid-30s after World War II - as a way to accompany family sing-alongs…
… but her heart was in visual art. She studied at the University of Iowa with Grant Wood, and began a commercial art (no degree, but - with Grant Wood on her résumé - that defined immediate hiring) career straight out of college when she married my father. One time, Grant Wood walked up to her and quietly asked (so that no one else could hear), “How are you getting those flesh tones?” … and - when I was told that particular story - my jaw sort of dropped, because one thing I’ve always thought about Grant Wood paintings has been that his flesh tones always look odd.

[djwpe]

Your granddaughter could be the next horn player in the NY Phil when what's his name finally retires...

What’s his name (Phil Myers) retired a couple years ago. They’re auditioning replacements this month.

[bort2.0]

Your granddaughter could be the next horn player in the NY Phil when what's his name finally retires...

What’s his name (Phil Myers) retired a couple years ago. They’re auditioning replacements this month.

Thanks... How embarrassing! I just knew he was still there when I left the city in 2015, and for some amount of time after that.

[MedicineMan]

I think extreme natural talent is required to reach the very top of musical achievement, but given the choice, I’d still choose hard work over innate talent any day.

[bloke]

Your granddaughter could be the next horn player in the NY Phil when what's his name finally retires...

“Retire” is an interesting word, isn’t it?

[bort2.0]

Your granddaughter could be the next horn player in the NY Phil when what's his name finally retires...

“Retire” is an interesting word, isn’t it?

Even though I work in the corporate world, 401k with employer match and all that hoo hah...

... I still think of my eventual retirement as being unemployed, or just not working anymore. And no work means no money. I'm a good 30 years away from that kind of work stoppage pressure, but some of the happiest old people I know are the ones who are still working, or at the least, regularly volunteering.

[Mary Ann]

My understanding is that what's-his-name was fired from the NYP because of harassing someone. That was the word in the horn world. Perhaps "requested to retire" but nonetheless......

I once said that I'd be happy to do his laundry if I would get to listen to him practice. Perhaps best that did not come about.....

[bloke]

My post above about my forebears might’ve seemed to have proven the opposite, but my Dad took up the clarinet because it was distraction from working on the railroad and in a strip-pit coal mines as a teenager…He was a heavyset punkin-headed, red-haired German/Irish-looking oaf.
My mother’s work as an artist didn’t come out of anything. Her parents were dairy farmers, and her father did a little more than clerking and bill collection type of work - once they decided to move from the farm to a city.
Mastering the guitar well enough to be hired to play cocktail parties for rich people (once I decided that minimum wage jobs for teenagers sucked) – and later the tuba and bass for miscellaneous types of ensembles - didn’t come out of any inherited anything. It was a bunch of hard work and struggling to not suck, because mostly every first-through-hundredth run of everything sucked. If I inherited anything, it was being encouraged to not suck… and encouragement is - again - nurture, and not nature.
To tell someone how “talented” they are - who has accomplished a lot in some discipline - (at least, to me) - is something of an insult.

[Mary Ann]

I agree about the insult although it's not on purpose; they realize no amount of work would have gotten THEM there, and so they assume it is "talent."

I used to mess with people when I was playing fiddle in bars; they would come up all gaga and say "How long have you been playing?" And I'd say, "Six months." Well, yes I had been playing for six months, and many years before that, so it wasn't exactly a lie if they interpreted it as ONLY six months.