Freeing slides

[Nworbekim]

the CC horn i bought hasn't been played in a very long time. several slides are STUCK!!! in the past i've used the HANKERCHIEF method of POPPING the slides loose on old horns i didn't care about, but i'd rather not on this one.

i don't want to haul it to the shop if i don't have to... so i thought i'd try something here first. the only torch source i have is a smaller BUTANE soldering torch i use in my radio projects. i'm wondering if that would get hot enough? or penetrating oil? would that damage the finish?

[bloke]

Slide-yanking is dangerous, (often) not effective, and (often) results in bad damage, including damage to non-replaceable parts.

Depending on how well braced, CAREFUL/SENSITIVE sideways slide TWISTING can be an effective way to bust loose lime and/or hardened old slide grease. As even a SLIGHT amount of rotation of both pairs of tubes is often enough to bust them loose.

"Slide pliers" are not as bad as slide "yanking", but can also result in additional damage.

REMOVING (un-soldering) the slide bow and ROTATING (carefully) each of the two tubes free INDIVIDUALLY is - sometimes - what must be done.
I used this technique on my recently-purchased Miraphone 98, whereby the bottom located #4 slide was severely stuck.
(Even that method - on that particular slide - BARELY worked, and - had I been less sensitive - I could EASILY have trashed this $2X,XXX instrument.)
Followed up by polishing and re-lacquering, this results in a damage-free repair.

Many, though, dislike the idea of taking it to a repair person, and - well - some repair people are "hacks", and yank on slides.

Do I occasionally engage in somewhat risky slide-removal techniques? YES...but I can FIX what I might screw up.

Finally, many VERY strong people do not have particularly-strong hands/wrists, with (mostly) their upper arms being strong, yet their hands being not-so-strong. I've not seen workout gyms with hand-strengthening equipment in place.

[bort2.0]

If it needs a bath anyway, would soaking in a tub of water help?

[Nworbekim]

Thanks for the advice. This Sounds like a trip to the shop... To get to a repairman I trust it's a 5 hour round trip. He has relatives a short distance from here so if I can catch him coming down this way for a visit, I might send it.

Since I'm mainly using it to learn CC patterns I'm not worrying so much about the intonation, nobody but me is having to listen.
It's pretty close so I can tolerate it or lip it.

But I just don't like having things that don't work like they're supposed to.

[bloke]

I've not seen workout gyms with hand-strengthening equipment in place.

https://ironmind.com/product-info/ironm ... gISBfD_BwE

These exist, but most of the run-of-the-mill gyms don’t have these. Black iron and strongman gyms usually have these and other grip/hand/wrist training devices.

[bloke]

If it needs a bath anyway, would soaking in a tub of water help?

…for stuck slides, approximately never.

[UncleBeer]

Penetrating oil, brulee torch, and patience (as long as you know what you're doing).

[bloke]

Penetrating oil, brulee torch, and patience (as long as you know what you're doing).

PB Blaster is pretty darn good. Some of the other ones are useless… (Example: WD)

Most slides are cemented with lime way up at their inaccessible ends (rarely are they stuck just past the slide bows), so the penetrating oil – if used – needs to be fed in from the back ends (like squirted in from the valve casings ends of the circuits) to drench the far ends of the slide tubes.

…Is this your experience, Unk ?

[York-aholic]

PB Blaster is pretty darn good. Some of the other ones are useless… (Example: WD)

That’s ‘cuz (and I know you know this) WD ain’t no penetrating oil. It’s a Water Displacement oil.


PB Blaster is pretty good, but man it stinks.

[UncleBeer]

…Is this your experience, Unk ?

I find this Kroil stuff gets drawn along by the torch, so judicious heating will take it where you need it to go. Plus, (as you say) twisting, tugging, etc.

[the elephant]

I have been using Kroil for about 20 years. I learned about it when I started ripping apart my Jeep to replace all the very badly rusted hardware in the suspension. (It was a flood victim, staying in industrial chemical-laden, nasty water up to about six inches above the tub's floor for about 60 days. The acids in the "fresh" water acted like many years of road salt, but only on the hardware' the frame and tub were largely unaffected.)

The Kroil worked best for me when combined with an air hammer and my acetylene torch. I also used the "old man" solution of acetone and ATF mixed 50/50, which works really well in some applications. (Give it a try.)

I keep PB around as it also works well, and it is a lot less expensive and much easier to get than Aerokroil. I always have a can of Kroil on my bench, though. Handy stuff, to be sure…

[bloke]

With instruments, of course it’s not ferrous metal rust caused by acid, it’s the opposite - almost: it’s lime deposits acting as sort of a concrete-like cement.

Again, I believe we’ve all discovered that WD is useless. I have discovered that PB somehow seems to attack the lime (again: if I get it to where the lime is located)… and I can drive to the nearest Podunk town and buy it off the shelf.

It is pretty stinky, but so are chickens, and they are beneficial too.

[Ricardo]

I have poured boiled water on stuck slides and valves. Works well at freeing things. I’m not and never will be a repairman- it it has worked for me. I wouldn’t want to do it on a tuba with nice lacquer, but on old tuba’s it’s a goer.

[bloke]

If the only issue is hardened slide grease, that can be a successful pursuit.
As far as lime is concerned, I’ve never had heat help me out with that.

I have poured boiled water on stuck slides and valves. Works well at freeing things. I’m not and never will be a repairman- it it has worked for me. I wouldn’t want to do it on a tuba with nice lacquer, but on old tuba’s it’s a goer.

[Rick Denney]

Penetrating oil, brulee torch, and patience (as long as you know what you're doing).

PB Blaster is pretty darn good. Some of the other ones are useless… (Example: WD)

Most slides are cemented with lime way up at their inaccessible ends (rarely are they stuck just past the slide bows), so the penetrating oil – if used – needs to be fed in from the back ends (like squirted in from the valve casings ends of the circuits) to drench the far ends of the slide tubes.

…Is this your experience, Unk ?

Kroil is even better than PB-Blaster, particularly if the parts are heated first (though really sufficient heating might burn the lacquer or melt the solder). And it can be bought as a liquid in large quantities (up to 55-gallon drums).

But if the slide is corroded internally but still with grease close to the ends, nothing one can spray or dribble on will penetrate to break loose the corrosion. I think I'd buy the Kroil in a gallon can, plug the slide tube with a cork (if the crook has been removed), turn and support the instrument so the crook (or cork) is down, and fill the tube up from the other end with Kroil so that the open ends are submerged. Leave it for a few days or even longer--it will do no harm to the instrument and it takes a long time to soak through old grease and corrosion. Warming the outer slide (not enough to boil the penetrant--use a hair dryer) may help, but time measured in days or even weeks will work better.

Slide pliers are dangerous in unskilled hands, but the point is to provide a way to apply a controlled impact (using a small rawhide hammer) to fracture brittle lime/calcium buildup. If that doesn't work, hitting it harder also won't work and it will tear things up. Warming the outer slide first may help. The skill part is knowing how hard to hit it to be effective without causing damage, and that solution space may be zero.

Rick "who has no problem with hand strength--coordination is the tricky bit" Denney

[bloke]

I'm about "done" with heating stuck band instrument slide tubes.

It just rarely does much good, and does nothing for lime.
If two pieces of metal fence post are held together by a 1/4 inch of well-adhered concrete, is heating those posts going to effectively accomplish the freeing of them...or will it be "probably something else" that's going to need to be employed...??

By the time I've (to no avail) given "heat" a fair shot, the OTHER things - which I shall have employed - will have ended up being successful.

1/100th of the time, I end up having to toss an inside/outside slide tube set in the brass scrap, and replacing those tubes...and I can deal with that as well...and would have dealt with it, had I not been able to free that VERY badly seized lower #4 tube on this new-to-me Miraphone model 98.

btw...
With the 98 I DID go ahead and immerse the instrument in the cleaning acid (ie. "chem-clean") with the stuck slide in place, and the acid WAS - then - allowed to work on dissolving (at least SOME) of the lime from the remote end of that stuck tube - PRIOR TO me removing the slide bow, pouring PB down to that remote tube end, and GINGERLY (though it was extremely resistant...so "GINGERLY/DETERMINEDLY") rotating that seized tube out of there.

bloke "As difficult/challenging as freeing SOME slide tubes is, there is NO WAY IN HELL that I would have anyone - other than myself - do it for me. This is not to say that I'm the 'slide whisperer', but - being 65 - I've f'ed up enough stuff, over the years - to pick up signals - from seized parts - when a tack is to no avail, and when I'm on the brink of doing damage."

[Rick Denney]

Heat has the advantage of thinning any old grease that is preventing the penetrant from getting to where the corrosion is. Whether heat that is low enough not to damage lacquer or unsolder parts will do that I am not sure, but it does no harm.

But my advice was for people doing it at home, not for techs. Kroil is expensive, but in liquid form can fill up a slide tube and will also eat through old grease to get to corrosion. There's no risk to the strategy and most anyone can do it in their garage (Kroil is smelly) without risk to themselves or the instrument. Removing the crook is something only technicians should do for any instrument of value. Ditto slide pliers.

The secret sauce for home repairs is leaving the Kroil in there for days or weeks--techs can't wait that long but home repairs aren't under time pressure. (And if they are, take it to a tech.)

For breaking loose steel parts that are rusted, I use considerable heat followed by spraying it with AeroKroil. That works nearly every time, but the heat is far greater than what lacquer or solder would tolerate.

Rick "most recently applied to rusted brake-line flare nuts, using Snap-On flare-nut wrenches" Denney

[the elephant]

… it’s not ferrous metal rust…

I was explaining to Unk how I came to use and trust Kroil (or AeroKroil in the spray can). It is better than PB Blaster in all regards, but —as I said — I keep PB on the bench because I can get it easily and cheaply. Kroil is expensive and you have to order it from the maker (Kano).

I think everyone in this thread knows that brass does not rust.

[Rick Denney]

… it’s not ferrous metal rust…

I was explaining to Unk how I came to use and trust Kroil (or AeroKroil in the spray can). It is better than PB Blaster in all regards, but —as I said — I keep PB on the bench because I can get it easily and cheaply. Kroil is expensive and you have to order it from the maker (Kano).

I think everyone in this thread knows that brass does not rust.

Kroil is available on Amazon, but I think Kano is no longer selling it direct. Admittedly, it's not cheap. I'm still working through a couple of cases of AeroKroil that I bought a decade ago (along with a bottle of Ex-Rust and a can of Microil), and I bought those directly from Kano. Looking at their site just now, they referred sales locally here to Fastenal, which isn't convenient for me at all.

All penetrants are expensive in aerosol cans, and those cans don't last long. After my AeroKroil runs out, I'll buy it in gallons and use a squeeze bottle.

Rick "hears that Amazon will even deliver to Williston" Denney

[bloke]

Even though these various rust-penetrants may work their way in an lubricate enough to help break lime free - which has cemented itself on to brass tubing, that's not what they are - primarily - designed to do.

I was not stating the obvious to attempt to make a point (as - again - it's obvious, and certainly not to "educate" anyone) - that we are using things (which help) even though those things were not really designed to help us do what we are attempting to do.

again: If I feel the need, I will immerse an instrument with lime-cemented slides into the acid cleaner, so that (at least: some) of the lime will be dissolved from the remote end(s) of any stuck slides.

bloke "who - to be even more clear - pursues results over methodology...and am willing to try many things which might point towards success...but probably not Scientology"