Tuba for quintet

[TubArild]

I am considering buying a new tuba for use in quintets and other small chamber groups. What I struggle with to decide is whether I should go from Cc tuba to eb or f tuba or buy a smaller Cc tuba. I now play on em RM 5/4 and a Wessex 5/4 Cc tuba. The tubas I consider are RM 3/4 Cc, Miraphone 283 norwegian star eb, miraphone 84, 85, 86 Cc, miraphone electra f. Miraphone firebird f. I have never played f tuba before and it is almost 40 years since I played eb tuba. What do you think?

[Doc]

I'm sure this will not be the majority opinion, but I think a nimble small CC is the perfect quintet tuba. Maybe a larger Eb like he star, but I honestly don't love the F in a quintet

full disclosure. I grew up listening to the Canadian Brass. It's hard to get that sound of my head.

[matt g]

Most of literature lays better on a small contrabass.

The smaller bore 4/4 horns are probably decent, like the Eastman 632. Miraphone 184/185 are good. The Rudy 3/4 is probably fine also.

A modern Conn 2J would be nice to have.

[Sousaswag]

If you’re going to use a bass tuba, you’d better be sure it can play down low, or that you’re good at playing low on that particular tuba. I love my big F tuba for quintet, but I would not want to play a typical rotary F in quintet. YMMV. The Rudy would be a good option. I prefer bass tuba in quintet because the C I have is much too big. Really just depends on what you want to do. C or Eb would be a fine option.

[Worth]

I play regularly in a BQ. Seriously, the horn that gets taken to BQ most is my PT-6P clone and ensemble members agree. With a special touch, it is delicate and nimble enough to not overpower and it allows me to punctuate things how I like. We play a mix of classical, jazz, and pop (up to 2021) and arrange many of our own charts with MuseScore. Depends what you are looking for I suppose. I have an older Conn 2J and do not enjoy it for quintet at all. Interestingly enough, although the intonation on my Piggy takes more steering, I prefer it's sound over my Miraphone 188 in quintet. I'm still working on bonding with the 188 and primarily use it to practice at home at this point. To me (and the group), comparatively the sound is bland and lacks color compared to the other two horns. I did not expect this, but we all have a different sound concept in our heads.

[Rick Denney]

I’ve played these tubas in quintet enough to have an opinion:

—Yamaha 621 F
—B&S Symphonie F (two different examples)
—Sanders/Cerveny 4/4 Bb
—Miraphone 186 Bb
—Eastman EBB-534 (King new-style 2341 clone)
—Holton BB-345
—Hirsbrunner HBS-193 (5/4 kaiser)

And I’m in the process of learning a Miraphone 184 Bb, which I intend to use at least some of the time.

None of these have been “wrong.”

But it depends on the literature, and it depends on the other players. Of course it also depends on my own ability to control the instrument, but there I’m a good test: if it works for me it should work for anybody.

Some music is written with contrabass tuba in mind. I’m think of the typical warhorse Robert King arrangements like Der Bankelsangerlieder.

Some is written with a bass trombone in mind. For that lit, the little Yamaha is unmatched. No other tuba can go trombone-like with the same ease, though I think the 184 can match it in that regard.

Right now, I’m playing a Gabrieli thing in a double quintet (Frackenpohl arrangement). Other tuba player (who is better than me) is playing the Tuba 2 part on a C, and that leaves me routinely at the top of the staff playing softly. No contrabass will make that part sing as easily as the B&S F tuba. No other F tuba that I’ve played, for that matter, my general fondness for the later Miraphone F’s notwithstanding. F tuba brings a high singing voice and security I never can attain on a contrabass.

My last two quintet gigs were both church services, and blending with organ was as important as blending with trumpets and trombone. I used the Eastman, which is easy to play softly and retain a deep, resonant tone typical of fat-belled contrabass tubas. But for much stuff, it is round and Sousa-like in quintet. It never had the right sound for renaissance music. But I’ve been using it more in a band setting for when we play in resonant halls, and have come to love it for that.

For stuff like the Cheetham Scherzo or Ewald, I also prefer clarity over breadth any day. The 184 seems like it might be perfect for Ewald.

We play children’s programs frequently, and Bb is often easier to manage than F for that literature. Typical example is the theme from Spider-Man, which has a lot of electric bass and walking bass stuff in it.

The hope for the 184 is that it brings more security in the low register even as I battle relaxation-murdering tremor, while maintaining clarity and blend. I see myself using it or the F depending on the lit, unless church organ is involved.

The other players—their sound and their power—has a huge impact on the choice.

Daellenbach can play anything and make it sound good, and his requirements include physical humor while carrying and playing it. The 621 was perfect for him, and he uses it to this day for what Wade calls runouts. He has also played his version of the Getzen G-50, and I’m sure he has a similar Conn since they have been sponsored by Conn-Selmer. He has one of the G-50’s fitted with a carbon-composite bell (see need for ballet pirouettes mentioned above). Always a C, but always a smallish C.

Some would argue that a C or an Eb provides the middle ground over which I keep skipping between Bb and F. On the contrabass end, I don’t think so, except that good small Bb’s are rare. For bass tubas, however, the argument for Eb is a lot more compelling with the instruments available in the last 20 years than previously. A Besson 983, for example, might be just about perfect, if the roundness of the tone can be controlled. But that’s just theoretical for me.

Rick “dealing with this a lot lately” Denney

[bloke]

Over the years, I've mostly pulled out a contrabass tuba to play
[1] "Quintet" - Arnold
[2] "West Side Story" - Bernstein/Gale
[3] commencement/wedding/funeral music reduced from large ensemble to brass quintet

Otherwise, I've used my F (particularly when recruited into membership with some university faculty quintet, as they tend to program "look what I can do" somewhat-to-very gymnastic works). ref: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbVv7_eexqI

I own several tubas - all of which get used (or they end up being sold).
I've recently found a very-short-profile 11/16" bore B-flat to prove to be remarkably handy - when I really can't bring along the ideal instruments to play each piece, or when hired to play [3], above. Other than the bore size and configuration, the rest of it is the size of the ancient York model 33. There's nothing like it on the market (with the closest things being the King and Eastman's King knock-off, but those don't really hit the mark). The Holton 331 was probably close.

[tubanh84]

In the moment, I have always preferred a CC for quintet. Listening to recordings afterwards I prefer an F. I played a PT10 for a while that sounded great. My current 182 works great.

To repeat a point above, my old PT6 worked fine when it needed to.

Having a 184 now, I’m going to try that next chance I get to play in a quintet.

[DonO.]

So, let me get this straight. To play brass quintets, you need several different horns depending on the specific literature? On top of the horn you need for bands and the one you need for orchestras, maybe several of each of those?

Back in my “heyday”, which was quite a number of years ago, I was always a one-horn kind of guy. Never played bass, always contrabass, BBb specifically. Played in community bands, community orchestras, Dixieland gigs, and quintets. Always used the same horn. I found my Cerveny made Amati (basically a 681) was a real “Swiss Army knife”. I could get any sort of tone out of it I needed at the time and never considered having only one horn a handicap. In fact I think it was an advantage. Anytime I tried a different horn it never felt right to me. I knew my horn. I had long term familiarity with how it responded for me. I was never good at playing more than one tuba. The other ones just didn’t feel right to me.

Different strokes for different folks I guess.

[hrender]

full disclosure. I grew up listening to the Canadian Brass. It's hard to get that sound of my head.

This. Sam Pilafian's sound in the early EB is still my ideal tuba sound.

[Rick Denney]

So, let me get this straight. To play brass quintets, you need several different horns depending on the specific literature? On top of the horn you need for bands and the one you need for orchestras, maybe several of each of those?

Back in my “heyday”, which was quite a number of years ago, I was always a one-horn kind of guy. Never played bass, always contrabass, BBb specifically. Played in community bands, community orchestras, Dixieland gigs, and quintets. Always used the same horn. I found my Cerveny made Amati (basically a 681) was a real “Swiss Army knife”. I could get any sort of tone out of it I needed at the time and never considered having only one horn a handicap. In fact I think it was an advantage. Anytime I tried a different horn it never felt right to me. I knew my horn. I had long term familiarity with how it responded for me. I was never good at playing more than one tuba. The other ones just didn’t feel right to me.

Different strokes for different folks I guess.

This becomes a religious issue for some, but it needn't be. Those who have professional training and skills can probably play pretty much anything on a compromise instrument.

For me, though, I'm not secure enough in the high register to be confident playing at the top of the staff (and higher) on a contrabass. Most of the time I'm okay, but I like tubas that make me sound like I'm better than I am, and an F tuba for me is about a hundred times more secure in that register.

And even though I have six valves, I'm simply not well enough trained on scales in the low register to play fast stuff below the staff with any degree of comfort, at least in some keys.

Sure, I can make F work for everything, and I can hack my way through just about everything on Bb. But the sound I want for a walking-bass line at the bottom of the staff and below will be a big challenge for me on F tuba, and getting the characteristic high singing clarity at the top of the staff for Renaissance and Baroque music will put me at great risk of clams when playing the kind of Bb I want for those walking-bass lines.

So, yes, I'll carry two tubas if that improves the output/skill ratio. I'm okay if that makes me a lesser player.

Rick "goes by results, not bravado" Denney

[Rick Denney]

full disclosure. I grew up listening to the Canadian Brass. It's hard to get that sound of my head.

This. Sam Pilafian's sound in the early EB is still my ideal tuba sound.

Yet Sam played C tuba with the Empire Brass and F tuba (actually, a 621 with an even lower serial number than mine) with the Boston Brass. There was something about the sound he wanted with each that led him to different equipment.

Rick "Sam's ideal tuba sound seemed to transcend his equipment; I'm more constrained" Denney

[Doc]

Many years ago, I had a weekly gig with a sextet that included the principal trombone and associate principal trumpet from the symphony. The other players went on to have professional careers also. I used a Rudy 3/4 CC (which is more of a 4/4 CC), and I kept up with those guys just fine. It was plenty of tuba for the job without being overkill, and it was agile enough to play all the literature. Occasionally, I would bring my Alex F for those things more baroque in style. The trombone (he played alto in the group - no f. horn) preferred the F tuba for blending, and the trumpet preferred the Rudy because he liked tuba to have more of a foundational sound. It's helpful to know what your group is capable of, their playing style and approach, and sometimes their personal opinions, so you might consider those things in addition to your own abilities and the literature the group will be playing when making your decision. I was in prime playing condition at that time, so all things considered in that particular situation, my go-to ended up being the Rudy 3/4 CC.

In recent years, I've been playing in a quintet of local pros with real gigs (everyone except me ). I have been using F tuba, and it is great on most things. But since I acquired the 1969 blokespecial 186 CC, I have been using it exclusively, and the group loves it, and it sounds great with this particular set of players. I don't think I'd play a new 186 CC in quintet, as it doesn't have the same attributes as the smaller-bell sheet brass version, but it would probably be fine.

So I might tend to recommend a 3/4 CC over an F tuba (unless you are really comfortable tackling low literature on F tuba), but since you mentioned Eb...
I have my own issue going on related to tuba choice in quintet: Earlier this year, I acquired a compensating Eb tuba (JP 377), and I have a hard time putting it down. I love playing it. I have been reading on it daily so I can be confident enough to try it in quintet and see how it fits. I would have played it on our annual Easter services, as the hymns, responses, etc. are not too difficult, but I didn't think my reading prowess was quite ready for My Spirit Be Joyful (key of D), even though I know the tune well enough. And since we get paid well, I wasn't going to unnecessarily give anyone a reason to not call me back because of reading mistakes or brain farts with fingerings. But I definitely want to see if I like Eb better with the group.

Having said all that...

After 40 years, I don't know what Eb skills you may retain, but Eb might be a consideration if you think you can pick it back up quickly. F tuba really has to be approached/learned as a different instrument - it really isn't just a 3/4 CC of shorter length in terms of playability. There's no doubt that Eb or F can be great in quintet - you'll just have to figure out if your learning curve might be short or long with those. But if you want to be able to simply get a plug & play tuba and start right away, and since you never mentioned 3/4 BBb, then 3/4 CC would be my suggestion.

[bloke]

So, let me get this straight. To play brass quintets, you need several different horns depending on the specific literature? On top of the horn you need for bands and the one you need for orchestras, maybe several of each of those?
<snip>
Different strokes for different folks I guess.

non-malicious sarcasm:
I walked seventeen miles barefoot in three feet of snow in 98° heat carrying all of the volumes of Encyclopædia Britannica plus all of my textbooks, thermos, and lunchbox every day to-and-from school, and all of that in twenty minutes flat...

..."need"...??

no.

...but - with other tuba players (some: "young and hungry") lurking in my geographic area - I'm particularly interested in contractors, section leaders, music directors, and colleagues noticing a difference when I'm contracted to perform.
Could I show up with a four-valve B-flat tuba to play everything...??
sure. I could do that...but I would have to practice more...and gigs (though tons of fun, and involve remuneration) don't pay as well as does repairing other people's torn-up stuff...and practicing enough to play stuff (that I would otherwise possibly choose to play on a C, F, Eb, or 9' Bb instrument) would take more time away from (again: better-paying) repair work. F contrabass trombone...?? A whole bunch of latter-era orchestral pops tuba parts stink - when played on most any tuba, but light up - when played on the cb. trombone.

...and yes, I use a B-flat or C tuba - usually - to play brass quintet ceremonial gigs (again: typically one-after-another 5-piece arrangements of orchestral or wind-band pieces - ie. broader sound), but I choose to play - when programmed by some-or-another quintet - stuff written by Eugene Bozza, David Sampson, Jan Bach, etc. on an instrument that's more flexible, and which demands just a bit less of me.

Finally, I'm a extremely-picky bottom-feeder, as far as personal instrument acquisition is concerned.
The overwhelming majority of models of tubas (any length), I am not the least bit interested in owning.
As I've stated before, "perspiration" - to me - is not part of "performing music". I'm looking for easy gigs and easy repair work...and - even when one or the other might be "not so easy" - "just the right tool" can define either as "sort-of easy". Long ago, I proved to myself what I'm capable of doing. That having been said - there's no way I'm revealing (again: a bottom-feeder, acquisition-wise) what I paid for any of those that I own/use.

obviously related topic: mashing buttons, reading concert pitch music, and playing tubas of various lengths with various types of 5th or 6th valves
Different lengths of tubas, are - pretty much - like using a capo on a guitar. Their various configurations of auxiliary valves are "hooks" that my mind (at least, the way my goofy brain works) to help remind me where I've set the (figuratively speaking) "capo". Most of us can "hear" (imagine) what some passage will sound like - just by looking (ahead) at it in the sheet music. When a passage is correctly imagined - even if one's reaction time may not be the fastest reading-and-playing one-or-more particular lengths of tubas, the fingers will generally "walk themselves" through the sounds that the mind has predicted are those which are to occur.

bloke "I almost sold my sousaphone, fairly recently, but - since I was unable to meet up with the buyer, as planned - I ended up actually needing it for an out-of-town Mardi Gras parade and subsequent party. It has four valves, but - even though fiberglass - I sorta wish it only had three."

Al Hirt was a great trumpet player. He played everything on a B-flat trumpet. Here he is doing the Mozart:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1E2Rfh8XoDw

[UncleBeer]

No question: large Eb.

[Doc]

No question: large Eb.

When I saw the notification that you responded, I didn't have to guess what the response would be.

To the OP:
If you haven't heard Uncle Beer play his large Eb, you have missed out on something fantastic.

Doc (fanboying)

[Worth]

Different lengths of tubas, are - pretty much - like using a capo on a guitar. Most of us can "hear" (imagine) what some passage will sound like - just by looking (ahead) at it in the sheet music. When a passage is correctly imagined - even if one's reaction time may not be the fastest reading-and-playing one-or-more particular lengths of tubas, the fingers will generally "walk themselves" through the sounds that the mind has predicted are those which are to occur.

I think you may be assuming that the OP who has never played F and not played Eb in 40 years has your capabilities. Not everyone's brain works like yours, mine sure doesn't. All depending, he may be better off with a 3/4 (or other) CC as others have mentioned. He also may not be in your professional situation with other hungry competing tuba players or needing to play alongside gymnastic University pros. This post is more about his situation and what would be good for him. He needs to give us more to go on to offer relevant advice on different length tubas

[Doc]

He needs to give us more to go on to offer relevant advice on different length tubas

Without specific information, I tried to account for different possibilities in my ramblings. And at second read, while hoping it makes sense, I see that it was a lot of rambling. Maybe the OP can chime in with additional info to help clarify things a bit.

_____

My brain is like Joe's - if you know the tune, push the buttons that make it come out of the instrument you are playing. It's just a combination of scales and arpeggios (patterns), plus knowing where those patterns lie under the fingers, and then apply said patterns to said instrument of said length. Sure, not everyone has that level of confidence or amount of experience in that line (one of my peeves about music education), but with time, it can be just fine. Thankfully, I have lots of experience doing that. But I still ain't takin' no chances on the Bach!

[bloke]

- I'm nothing special - other than the fact that I post too much (mostly, while taking a break or waiting for a time-sensitive message/email response). I'm not "talented", I'm not "gifted". I'm not "quick". I'm just another tuba player.
- Most people can (or certainly could) do better than than I can do, if they work more than I've worked (and -clearly - I've not worked as much, nor as efficiently - as those who can do more than I can do).
- People are able to speak two-to-several languages, some of which have very little to do with each other.
- Figurative "sliding a capo up on a tuba" is not very hard (quite a bit easier than mastering a second language) - particularly after it's been given a fair try. Further (though some of them are a bit annoying to negotiate, YET they "work"), there are now affordably-priced tubas in all configurations - whereby anyone (who's curious) can get their feet wet.

There's machinery with which I'm not familiar. I have to use a shovel or a mattock, because I don't have experience running a backhoe (and neither have I dipped my toe into the water to buy one)...yet I know that backhoes - as well as the skills required to operate them (and some can operate them with astonishing nimbleness) are very valuable. I'd like to be able to operate one, as well as own one...yet, I've done nothing towards realizing either of those propositions. Probably, some of the Chinese backhoes aren't as good as the very best ones...but I would probably buy a Chinese one first, were I really serious about following up with my desire to be able to realize mastery and ownership. Currently, I'm at the put-up-or-shut-up stage of this. Probably, I will shut up, even though there is a tremendous amount of really cool stuff I could do - around here - were it that I had a backhoe and could operate it with some level of expertise.

"Believing that oneself lacks some sort of type of talent" is a huge barrier (yes?) towards mastery/improvement/acquiring additional skill-sets. I started another thread on this, but I just don't put much stock in "talent". Mastery of abilities progresses from rough to fine. I can be easily convinced that "motivation" is something very real, but I'm not completely convinced (at least, not that it matters all that much) regarding 'talent".

[GC]

I only use a 3+1 compensating Eb for quintet, BUT . . . if I had a large BBb, I'd probably use it some of the time. I had no problem with a 20J or 25J in quintet, and the other members preferred the sound over the sound of smaller instruments.

While the choice of size of horn is often huge to tuba players, it's less so to the other players. You might ask their opinion what type sound they prefer, then do what you think is best.