double/triple tonguing

[Nworbekim]

i can't remember seeing this discussed much. i am NOT happy with what i hear myself doing. my single is usually quick enough but i'd just like to be better.

i've read the literature but i must not applying it correctly. if you wouldn't mind giving away your secrets, can we discuss the techniques? don't think ANYTHING is TOO simple... start with basics. suggested practice material?

[Mary Ann]

How I've seen it taught, is to get your K sound as crisp as your T sound. And then use a metronome to get speed.

My single tongue is just not fast. For some reason triple tonguing started out being easy for me, and I'm never going to have the world's cleanest double tongue because I'm not willing to do the practice detailed above.
When I was studying oboe, with a grad student, for some reason she was just then learning to double tongue (even with my horrid DT, I was better than she was, ha) -- and that is how our teacher told her to learn it. She was complaining bitterly but did as told and got quite good at it.

Triple tongue, the flute players learn TKT KTK TKT KTK and I cannot do that without getting scrambled; for me, it's TKT TKT TKT and I can go fast enough.

[tubanh84]

So this is one of those things that I liken to throwing a curveball. It's a physical task that the body has to be taught. It has literally zero to do with your musicianship. So it has to be treated as a physical skill, not part of "musical" development.

Start very slow alternating t and k. Slow as in quarter note at 60bpm. Do sets of 10 or 20 with an emphasis on making them sound the same. Once you can do that, increase the speed. I don't feel the need to increase it slowly. If you can do it at 60, try it at 70 or 80 and see if you can do it. Increase the speed until you can't do it. Then decrease it back to where you could and work slowly up from there. That's double tonguing.

For triple tonguing, same thing. I use t-k-t (which puts me in the minority). Same thing. Start at a speed you can do it, and increase it from there.

This all takes time and some dedication. You're training muscles. You don't start out benching 250 pounds. You work up to it slowly and gradually with consistent work.

[bloke]

Practice in the car with a Kelly mouthpiece.

Turn on the NPR station and do it during all the mediocre pieces they play, and especially during their so-called “news”.

[sweaty]

The Arban book presents triple (TTK) before double. Brian Bowman told me it is because it is easier to learn double after triple than triple after double.

Use a metronome, start slowly, and progress very gradually. You'll get there.

[Nworbekim]

i have pretty good speed, it's the clarity that sucks... need to slow down and practice precision.

[bloke]

i have pretty good speed, it's the clarity that sucks... need to slow down and practice precision.

It took me a while, but I found that (unlike what one might assume) the more "clarity" I attempted to achieve, to more "articulation noise" I would generate. I found that "dugah" or "doodle" offers a cleaner sound that TA-KA...

...and rarely is it the case that some composer/arranger will offer up a bunch of very-very fast articulated notes for the tuba, and ALSO request that the tuba player strongly accent each of them.

I only played under Revelli’s baton a couple of times but both times he made a point of telling the band that an articulation is not about whacking anything, but - simply - moving the tongue out of the way and letting the air go across the reed or through the lips.

Morley Calvert's "Suite from the Monteregian Hills" last movement (a fantasy on "Il est né, le divin Enfant") is a great thing to work on - when you get sick and tired of (simply) using scales and repeated notes to work on duple-tonguing. Additionally, it offers something practical (ie. an actual piece - that you might well being asked to perform) rather than - simply - drills.

[Nworbekim]

yah, u r correct... there's not that many pieces that require extended multi-tonguing. i'm good, for the most part, on most that i have encountered.

my college instructor was really a trombonist and i learned taka/takata... later i read about digga/digada and have switched. my problem FEELS like it's the BACK of the tongue. when i get into the upper register i feel like i'm straining some. it's probably a matter of spending MORE time on it.

[bloke]

yeah… back of the tongue is probably going to constrict the shape of the inside of the mouth, and the sound probably isn’t going to be very pretty.

[gwwilk]

Come Monday our Community Concert Band is playing Jay Bocook's arr. of G. Holst's MARS from THE PLANETS. The conductor beats it from the start right at 150 bpm. My tongue has never been fast enough to single-tongue triplets at that tempo, so I'm triple tonguing all of the 5/4 initial identical 25 measures' triplet downbeats. I cut my teeth in high school on an Arban's for Trombone reading down an octave on tuba, so it's actually great fun!

[Paulver]

While I definitely prefer the T-K action and sound, sometimes I had low brass students start with Dug-Ga, Dug-Ga. It's a little easier to start with when having difficulties. Then, as they got more proficient at it, I had them switch to Tuk- Ka, Tuk-Ka. It worked for them. Triple tonguing...... same thing, only variants of it.... T-T-K, T-K-T, D-D-G, D-G-D. Either way, you'll have to put two Ts or two Gs together...... unless you get good at switching a few around, and depending on how long the rhythm is. Work 'em up to speed, then decide which syllables work better for you. To me, T-K produces a much cleaner result. A very good T-Bone player friend of mine put me on to that idea for my students.

[donn]

Anyone know where François Thuillier stands on T/K vs. D/G? Professor at Amiens. Sousaphone solo.

[Doc]

I cut my teeth in high school on an Arban's for Trombone reading down an octave on tuba

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[bloke]

interesting...
When playing "Mars", I've always decided to avoid K-tonguing anything in those triplets - to help me avoid landing on the subsequent beat too early...

...That having been said, I've only played the bass tuba part a couple of times, and the tenor tuba part a couple of times, so I ain't no expert.

bloke "All I know is that - if I play the tenor tuba part, I had better damn well...
- not show up with some "bucket" mouthpiece, AND
- practice counting those "bar-rooop!!!" licks before the first rehearsal, which are easy to screw up.

[Nworbekim]

While I definitely prefer the T-K action and sound, sometimes I had low brass students start with Dug-Ga, Dug-Ga. It's a little easier to start with when having difficulties. Then, as they got more proficient at it, I had them switch to Tuk- Ka, Tuk-Ka. It worked for them. Triple tonguing...... same thing, only variants of it.... T-T-K, T-K-T, D-D-G, D-G-D. Either way, you'll have to put two Ts or two Gs together...... unless you get good at switching a few around, and depending on how long the rhythm is. Work 'em up to speed, then decide which syllables work better for you. To me, T-K produces a much cleaner result. A very good T-Bone player friend of mine put me on to that idea for my students.

i went back to T-K this afternoon... it IS cleaner than what i've been doing. tnx for the suggestion/reminder.

[bloke]

observation:

"Allegro" - when transcribed for wind-band - becomes "Angrily".

Since "Allegro" becomes "Angrily", might it be better to keep it in C, and blow through six feet of "angry" B-flat tuba cylindrical tubing, rather than none?

bloke "Though there surely are exceptions, the bores of very few weapons (ie. angry things) are conical."