Tuba for quintet

[jtm]

Rick “older, grayer, and skinnier” Denney

Was that considered a full time job? Or a good student job? And now I'm wondering how I went to Fiesta Texas a few times in the 90s and never saw a live band. :(

[Matthew Gaunt]

I think this would be a great quintet tuba!

viewtopic.php?t=4215

[Casca Grossa]

I am considering buying a new tuba for use in quintets and other small chamber groups. What I struggle with to decide is whether I should go from Cc tuba to eb or f tuba or buy a smaller Cc tuba. I now play on em RM 5/4 and a Wessex 5/4 Cc tuba. The tubas I consider are RM 3/4 Cc, Miraphone 283 norwegian star eb, miraphone 84, 85, 86 Cc, miraphone electra f. Miraphone firebird f. I have never played f tuba before and it is almost 40 years since I played eb tuba. What do you think?

Play what you are comfortable with.

[Rick Denney]

Rick “older, grayer, and skinnier” Denney

Was that considered a full time job? Or a good student job? And now I'm wondering how I went to Fiesta Texas a few times in the 90s and never saw a live band. :(

It was part time for us and mostly full-time for the Tech group. We played weekends including Friday nights, and they played weekdays. A typical Saturday was 8 shows, 30 minutes on and 30 minutes off plus lunch. We rehearsed new tunes during the off-times in a large wardrobe room. At the end of that season, I had chops of steel! I don't know what the Tech group was doing for living accommodations, but there was something worked out for them given that none of them were local to San Antonio.

The Sauerkrauts were the headliner in that part of the park, having just come off five years with Disney. They played five or six 45-ish-minute shows a day, as I recall.

Yes, Gary was digging that mullet look. :)

And yes, Ray is the one in that group who has not aged.

But how could you miss live music at Fiesta Texas? The theme of that theme park was music--it was owned by Opryland those first couple of years. We played our shows on the pavement outdoors, which in San Antonio implied a pretty good amount of durability.

Rick "good times with good people" Denney

[bone-a-phone]

As a trombone player who has played with a fair number of tubas, being Sam Pilafian or Dallenbach helps, but most of us aren't that. There's not a lot of massively low tuba parts in the quintet lit I've played. Yamaha 822f has a big sound and sounds great, as does the 621C, in a different sort of way. I played with a guy with a M&W Eb who did a nice job. The trombone player wants you to play something small so your sound can link in certain passages. Not something too huge that doesn't relate to a trombone sound, and nothing too punchy. Personally, I don't like bass trombone in a quintet. Tuba really rounds out the sound, and lets you emulate the entire orchestral brass section. But you don't want to go too big, and leave a huge gap between you and the bone player.

So many variables, but the venue I think has to be considered. Is the venue going to add presence? If so, you can use a smaller horn.

With my limited experience, if I were a better player on tuba, I'd use the Yamaha 621C because I love how nimble it is, while also having the size to add depth.

Depending on your price range, you might also look at a relatively new Mack https://mackbrass.com/tu8000-falcon-f-tuba reviewed by Olka.

[matt g]

Speaking of Mack Brass, that TU-421S with the 16” bell is probably an interesting option for the average quintet.

[russiantuba]

Yeah, he didn’t ask me, either. But I wasn’t aware he had ever used the 621 with the Empire Brass.

As to vanilla sound, that is often just what is needed. In the Tubameisters, I was usually playing high tuba, which is a relatively unimportant inner part most of the time. No need to stand out, or muddy the sound with too much depth.

In a quintet, the 621 will go trombone-like more easily than my B&S (but the 184 Bb is actually better at it than the B&S).

Chuck still uses his 621 C on occasion. Even though it is a longer bugle, it’s the same sound concept.

But nothing sings at the top of the staff like a B&S. It is still the perfect horn for Gabrielli, as far as I’m concerned. The B&S can soar up into that register—the Yamaha gets there, but with more mundane adjectives.

Rick “whose band shared a stage with the Boston Brass the year before Sam died and thought he sounded great” Denney

When I was at ASU, Sam had a newer 621F and one of his 13 or so Bill Bell Model CC tubas that he had with Empire. When he found out I had an older 621F, he wanted me to bring it (I already had my other 2 tubas on me as well). He mentioned he had an older one than this one, but he sold it. I can confirm mine is the one he used with Boston Brass until it got stolen.

It was quintet playing that got me to leave my B&S F and go to the Gronitz. I do miss the sound of the B&S (not the work I would have needed to get done). Jim said the YFB 822 would work, but he encouraged the Gronitz because he didn't want me to lose out on the sound. Some people think that the Yamaha sound is a blank canvas, but I can hear the "vanilla". The best yamaha anything I have played on was Don Harry's 822F. I do not know what he did to get that horn to play as it did, but it was not lacking in any color.

[Doc]

The best yamaha anything I have played on was Don Harry's 822F. I do not know what he did to get that horn to play as it did, but it was not lacking in any color.

Just Don Harry touching it was likely all that was needed.

[Rick Denney]

Sam must have found another old one--he had 100007 when I saw it and that was only a year or so before he died. We joked about it. He played my Hirsbrunner a bit and had a big smile on his face, but he would have been positive about it no matter what in that circumstance. He was the kind of guy that you'd be introduced to as part of a crowd, and five years later he'd greet you by name and treat you like a long-lost best buddy.

I just went back and looked--it was 2016 (pre-weight-loss for me) when the Boston Brass played with us, so actually not quite three years before he passed.



Back on topic: The 621 may be vanilla, but it's also point-n-shoot in a lot of scenarios, and has certainly earned its keep in high-end quintet situations. It's key advantage is that it has the high-range facility of a good F tuba but can be blown like a contrabass in the low register, which makes it flexible enough for that ensemble.

Rick "and it's easy to carry and play while standing" Denney

[edfirth]

I've been fortunate to hear a few tubas with quintets. Harvey was awsomely perfect in the NY Quintet on his Conn C, as was Toby Hanks on his Mirafone 186. Chuck D. made all of the various horns he played sound fantastic?(including my York Master Bb at a rat college program clinic). Jake rules on the old Chicago Brass Ensemble sides with Bud Herseth, Vince Chiciwicz. Hugh Cowdin, and Frank Crisafulli and we all know what he was using. And John Fletcher rocked it hard on his Besson Eb. Which tells me it doesn't matter what you use if you're comfortable with it (Casa Grasca). As for me , I very much like my King 2341 in quintet but would've used my Yamaha 321 for the higher tesatura stuff but that's it.Ed

[russiantuba]

Sam must have found another old one--he had 100007 when I saw it and that was only a year or so before he died. We joked about it. He played my Hirsbrunner a bit and had a big smile on his face, but he would have been positive about it no matter what in that circumstance. He was the kind of guy that you'd be introduced to as part of a crowd, and five years later he'd greet you by name and treat you like a long-lost best buddy.

I just went back and looked--it was 2016 (pre-weight-loss for me) when the Boston Brass played with us, so actually not quite three years before he passed.



Back on topic: The 621 may be vanilla, but it's also point-n-shoot in a lot of scenarios, and has certainly earned its keep in high-end quintet situations. It's key advantage is that it has the high-range facility of a good F tuba but can be blown like a contrabass in the low register, which makes it flexible enough for that ensemble.

Rick "and it's easy to carry and play while standing" Denney

True, it was an easy horn to play with and are very consistent. This was after Sam's horn got stolen I believe. Knowing Sam, he probably had a long list of older horns that he could buy.

[bloke]

I'm beginning to wonder if pressure canning might come into play, here...(??)

[hbcrandy]

Play whatever tuba you have. Just have the quintet tuba sound firmly implanted in your conscious mind and play that sound. Over 40 years of brass quintet playing, I have played everything from a Yamaha non-compensating Eb tuba to a 5/4 Rudy Meinl CC tuba with success. Other tubas have included a Bill Bell Model Meinl Weston, small York Rusk-cut CC, A 5/4 Cerveny CC and an Alexander 163 CC. It is your approach and sound concept to the type of playing that you are doing at the time that will dictate what comes out of your bell and how you blend with others. At least that is what always worked for me. If you are in full control of your instrument, you can make it do whatever you want.

[the elephant]

If you can find a good one — heck if you can find one *at all* — I would look at a smaller-belled ("classic") example of the Mirafone 185-5U CC. These have always been an ideal to my ear of what a tuba ought to sound and feel like in a brass quintet.

Rare as hen's teeth, the intonation has not been figured out quite to the level of the 186 or the 184, so they are a little inconsistent, but it is easier to find a good one than a bad one. \

This would be worthy of a search, IMHO…



BTW — I am *not* a fan of the 184. I like bigger tubas in a quintet, usually. But if I ever come across a really good 185 when I have money in hand it will instantly become my new quintet tuba. It just works.

[Rick Denney]

Said in another thread, but it really belongs here:

I recently reviewed a dozen or so recordings of the Dukas Fanfare from La Peri for reasons unrelated to my point, but got to hear a lot of different tubas in quintet and small ensemble settings. (The usual quintet arrangement is just a summary of the full original ensemble, not really different in tone concept). One of them stuck out and reminded me of this thread. The tuba player was using a large orchestral instrument, though the camera never zoomed in close enough for me to identify it. I don't even remember who it was--I listened to a bunch and didn't take notes.

As you know, the piece starts on a high Ab and the opening sits at the top of the staff. But later it descends down to the bottom of the staff, though it never gets much below the staff.

The 6/4 tuba and player blended okay in the high part, and didn't have too heavy a sound. But at the bottom of the staff, it's like a second player joined in and suddenly the tuba was booming, and not in a good way. In that work, the intended instrument would have been the six-valve C euphonium, and it's the F Horn that provides the contrasting voice. The tuba needs to add power to the trumpet-trombone blend, not stick out as a solo voice. What I heard was light-light-light-light-BOOOM-BOOOM-BOOOM-BOOOOOOM, while the trumpets and trombones were putting up a consistent wall of sound through all of those chords.

Maybe the best players in the world could get the right effect from a large orchestral contrabass tuba in that work, but I rather think doing so would be a lot of work, and it would just be easier to play an instrument that provides the correct blend out of the box. I've played it on just about everything. For the gig I have coming up, I'm using my F tuba and the other guy is using a 4/4 C.

(I note that the trumpets for a surprising number of the groups were also trying to reel in the brightness of the instrument to blend with the trombones, using rotary trumpets and not just in European groups.)

So, while any tuba can be right for a quintet, I think a tuba can also be wrong for any given piece of music.

Rick "loses majesty and power in all that boominess" Denney

[bloke]

That fanfare is missing a ton of parts (and chord tones) when played by a brass quintet, as was scored - originally, by Dukas - for a full symphony orchestra brass section.
For that reason, I'm always disappointed when it's programmed (by a quintet), though I wouldn't mind opening a brass choir concert with the full (no missing parts) version. The first several times I played it (in my late teens), I played it in a brass choir, and then that (blech) quintet whacked-down version was published. (Some of those ugly/wrong-sounding chords are QUITE NICE chords - when ALL of the chord tones are sounding.)
My euphonium features a huge (not just the bell diameter or throat size) bell, and its bore size is very large. I'd probably use it, as it's not that much off the mark from a French tuba.
That having been said, with ALL the parts being played (and by several more instruments), the particular color of tuba sonority has much less of an effect on the overall sonority.

Dukas score p1.png (30.04 KiB) Viewed 1429 times

I've (often) used four different instruments on a single brass quintet recital...and (perhaps on the same one - or others) the trombonist also used a euphonium and an English baritone (which is ideal for the Ewald quintets), and the trumpets used their B-flats, C's, flugelhorns, piccolos, and maybe in E-flat or D instruments. Oh yeah...The horn players have constantly switched between F and B-flat horns.

Once again, live concerts are mostly visual. The patrons LIKE seeing people playing different things, and also discovering (really) how those different things sound.

[donn]

It's too bad we don't all have modern Bb bass saxhorns laying around. From what I hear in recordings, it seems like something that would bring a more tuba like sound than a bass trombone, and a more focused sound than most of the other alternatives. For repertoire that calls for a bass in that range.

[bloke]

This is a sidebar, but – for those who’ve never played the Dukas fanfare with any group other than a brass quintet – notice how some of those hollow/ugly/don’t-make-any-sense chords suddenly make more sense - and are not hollow and ugly - when they are fleshed out, once all of the parts are actually played:

[hrender]

Thanks for this. I had a brass instructor at college who thought the Dukas was the best piece of brass ensemble writing he had heard or played, and this is a very good performance.

[bloke]

I guess I always sound like Eeyore, and maybe that’s some of what Wade was scolding me about…
…I like (the full/real version of) this fanfare OK. I hate it with just a brass quintet (missing important chord tones).
As far as a somewhat short fanfare, my favorite one is the really short version of the Richard Strauss fanfare (as recorded by Philip Jones), but – if something needs to be SUPER short – then this Dukas thing is pretty cool, and it’s written by a name composer.
So many fanfares - which were commissioned for special occasions (within the past three decades or so) - are really stinky (and frankly, embarrassing to perform).
The thing about the Dukas is that it can be tacked on to the front end of a of an orchestra concert
- with no risk of going overtime
- without having to hire extra musicians (standard orchestral brass section)