bad music

[Doc]

It’s one reason I’ve never been much interested in British brass bands—lots of technique but in pursuit of what? Trophies? Bah! Not worth what it would take to learn treble clef.

If you find a BBB that isn't driven by test pieces or contest trophies, you might really enjoy it. We don't go to contest, but we play some challenging, fun, and entertaining music. And the regular addition of brown notes in appropriate places is encouraged.

And use CC fingerings on the BBb treble clef parts. Once you are comfortable with treble clef, of course.

Doc (who eventually saw the merits of Bb and Eb treble clef)

[jtm]

It’s one reason I’ve never been much interested in British brass bands—lots of technique but in pursuit of what? Trophies? Bah! Not worth what it would take to learn treble clef.

If you find a BBB that isn't driven by test pieces or contest trophies, you might really enjoy it. We don't go to contest, but we play some challenging, fun, and entertaining music. And the regular addition of brown notes in appropriate places is encouraged.

And use CC fingerings on the BBb treble clef parts. Once you are comfortable with treble clef, of course.

Doc (who eventually saw the merits of Bb and Eb treble clef)

And for a casual intro, the Eb parts are easy to read on a non-Eb tuba by pretending they're bass clef.

[Doc]

It’s one reason I’ve never been much interested in British brass bands—lots of technique but in pursuit of what? Trophies? Bah! Not worth what it would take to learn treble clef.

If you find a BBB that isn't driven by test pieces or contest trophies, you might really enjoy it. We don't go to contest, but we play some challenging, fun, and entertaining music. And the regular addition of brown notes in appropriate places is encouraged.

And use CC fingerings on the BBb treble clef parts. Once you are comfortable with treble clef, of course.

Doc (who eventually saw the merits of Bb and Eb treble clef)

And for a casual intro, the Eb parts are easy to read on a non-Eb tuba by pretending they're bass clef.

That's what I did when I first started BBB many years ago and was playing Eb parts (on a BBb tuba). Make it bass clef and add 3 flats.

[jtm]

That's what I did when I first started BBB many years ago and was playing Eb parts (on a BBb tuba). Make it bass clef and add 3 flats.

In my group right now (since we're not contesting and worrying about rules) there are five basses. The two on the Bb part are both playing C tubas and have just got comfortable with transposing (read it like tenor clef, right?, except with a lot of low notes that you never see in normal tenor clef). The three of us on Eb are playing an Eb Yamaha, an F rotary Miraphone, and a C rotary Miraphone.

We had a couple of pieces for the Memorial Day concert that happened to be set in bass clef, and it was actually a little confusing having them mixed in with the other music. The guy on Eb got to pretend they were treble clef and add 3 sharps.

[Doc]

That's what I did when I first started BBB many years ago and was playing Eb parts (on a BBb tuba). Make it bass clef and add 3 flats.

In my group right now (since we're not contesting and worrying about rules) there are five basses. The two on the Bb part are both playing C tubas and have just got comfortable with transposing (read it like tenor clef, right?, except with a lot of low notes that you never see in normal tenor clef). The three of us on Eb are playing an Eb Yamaha, an F rotary Miraphone, and a C rotary Miraphone.

We have 2 Bb basses and one Eb bass. We'd like to add an Eb, but finding someone has been tough. We have a friend who may join us on Bb bass (playing a CC) this fall. If he does, my Bb stand partner and I will alternate on Eb from one concert to another. You just do what works. Thankfully, we don't currently have any trouble carrying the band, hosses that we are.

We had a couple of pieces for the Memorial Day concert that happened to actually be in bass clef, and it was actually a little confusing having them mixed in with the other music. The guy on Eb got to pretend they were treble clef and add 3 sharps.

I hear ya. It's bad enough when playing treble clef when you have a bass clef brain fart, but when you have to switch back and forth, that can be... uh... interesting. When you're finally rocking along fully in treble clef mode, then you have a surprise bass clef, I find that I need to remind myself that I need to read bass clef. Is it weird that I wish all of the music just stayed in treble clef?

We were reading some piece a while back, and there were what appeared to be a bunch of stuff in the pedal range, including some pedal C's (concert pitch). I dove in excitedly, only to realize after a couple of bars that they were only low F's in bass clef. I was more disappointed that they weren't pedal C's than I was about mistakenly playing treble clef. Of course, my section mates showed compassion, sympathy, and understanding for my plight.

[Rick Denney]

It’s one reason I’ve never been much interested in British brass bands—lots of technique but in pursuit of what? Trophies? Bah! Not worth what it would take to learn treble clef.

If you find a BBB that isn't driven by test pieces or contest trophies, you might really enjoy it. We don't go to contest, but we play some challenging, fun, and entertaining music. And the regular addition of brown notes in appropriate places is encouraged.

And use CC fingerings on the BBb treble clef parts. Once you are comfortable with treble clef, of course.

Doc (who eventually saw the merits of Bb and Eb treble clef)

I'd have to learn the CC fingerings, too. I play Bb and F, and learning F was a challenge I muddled through about 30 years ago.

But the music I've heard is too technical for me to enjoy--less about sound and color and more about fast fingers and flexible chops.

Of course, the truth is that all of what I enjoy doing seems to be fading away. I played a quintet/brass ensemble recital for a trumpet player last week, and had I played at the performance like I did in the final rehearsal, I'd be a lot happier about it.

Remember that while you were studying music and thinking about playing a recital to prepare for performance-program auditions, I was working interminable (or should that be "terminal") calculus problems in engineering school. (Well, not at the same time, of course, but at the same phase of life.) It wasn't until the TubaMeisters that I really cross some bridges into confident performance, but I struggle to sustain a quarter of that now.

Rick "in sustain mode" Denney

[Doc]

I'd have to learn the CC fingerings, too. I play Bb and F, and learning F was a challenge I muddled through about 30 years ago.

But the music I've heard is too technical for me to enjoy--less about sound and color and more about fast fingers and flexible chops.

Of course, the truth is that all of what I enjoy doing seems to be fading away. I played a quintet/brass ensemble recital for a trumpet player last week, and had I played at the performance like I did in the final rehearsal, I'd be a lot happier about it.

Remember that while you were studying music and thinking about playing a recital to prepare for performance-program auditions, I was working interminable (or should that be "terminal") calculus problems in engineering school. (Well, not at the same time, of course, but at the same phase of life.) It wasn't until the TubaMeisters that I really cross some bridges into confident performance, but I struggle to sustain a quarter of that now.

Rick "in sustain mode" Denney

Fair enough.

I suspect the appeal of calculus to me may be similar to the appeal of technical brass band playing to you.

Doc (who took trig, calc, and physics in grade school, but doesn't find joy in it as a pursuit)

[Mary Ann]

Grade school? Did you mean grad school? I don't know of any calc courses, ever, in grade school. Flying fickle typing fingers or Genius Southern Boy?

I think my drive to actually understand calculus, instead of just getting A's in it like I did, is quite a bit stronger than my drive to be a high level technician on a brass instrument. For one, I'm still capable of understanding calculus probably, and not capable of achieving a high technical level on a brass of any kind.

[bloke]

I’m thinking that my daughter took a pre-calculus and two calculus courses in high school.

[jtm]

I took "grade school" to mean "school where they still number the years, like 11 and 12," rather than elementary school, which may be a more common usage.

I guess this has strayed off topic a little.

[York-aholic]

I think our culture is screwed up that way.

I agree with you, but I would have to leave off the “that way”.

[Rick Denney]

I’m thinking that my daughter took a pre-calculus and two calculus courses in high school.

Calculus is usually an option in bigger or better high schools. Differential calculus is common; integration less so. The use of calculus in science classes? Not until second or third year of college. Differential equations is usually 3rd or 4th-semester calculus in college, but it’s the point where calculus really starts to become a power tool.

I had calculus in high school and did well with it. I struggled with it in engineering school, until my second whack at DiffEQ, when it all started to become clear. But I’ve always had more understanding than skill with it. It really helps in statistics, but usually the formulation makes the needed point and we don’t actually have to solve those extended logarithmic integrals.

Statistics is a whole other thing, and within that field, mathematical statistics is the theory stuff that demands good integration skills. That was grad school for me, and it nearly ate my lunch. But I can still, say, think of clever ways to transform data to correct for a lack of heteroskedasticity, which is not exactly the usual applied statistics task. That’s using a tool to build a tool to build a tool. But the arithmetic will be done using numerical methods in a computer.

But double-tonguing arpeggios at speed? Still working on that.

Rick “spent the evening rebuilding an old Chicago Pneumatic 3/4” impact wrench, and didn’t use calculus a-tall” Denney

[Paulver]

Calculus??? Heck, I had a bit of a time with Algebra!! Simply wasn't interested in it.

I'm 71 now, and I still don't know what X equals!!

[bloke]

Isn’t “Chicago” a Harbor Freight brand?

When people ask me to, I “fix“ Jinbao instruments, but I wouldn’t send them in for a valve jobs.
——————-
The same daughter studied the Russian language in high school, and took some more Russian classes at the University of Rochester - as there were shuttle buses between the main campus and the Eastman School of Music. I believe I remember a story about a bassoon student who signed up for one of those U of R Russian classes, so they could ride the bus back-and-forth with her, flunked out of the class, and subsequently had to pony up an extra year of that high-dollar tuition to graduate.
One Christmas season, she played oboe in something called the (included winds) New York String Orchestra (aka New York String Seminar) at Carnegie Hall. The other oboist was from the Ukraine, they were put up in the same hotel room, and that Ukrainian oboist ended up having someone to talk to – my daughter.
After graduating, she was preparing to do telephone interviews for Fulbright type scholarships at Moscow or St. Petersburg conservatories – which I didn’t particularly view as a great idea. Erin Hannigan – Dallas Symphony/SMU oboist heard about this, “rescued” her, and gave her a full ride plus a little walking around money for rent/food/gas. Needless to say, I’m really glad that happened.

bloke “but I digress”

[Rick Denney]

Isn’t “Chicago” a Harbor Freight brand?

Not Chicago Pneumatic. You are thinking of Central Pneumatic or Chicago Electric—both designed to cause the brand confusion you just expressed.

Chicago Pneumatic was founded in Chicago in 1901 as a compressor company focused on riveting tools. They invented the air impact wrench in the 30’s, but those have been made in Japan since (at least) the 70’s. They are now owned by a Swedish-based global conglomerate, and their stuff is made everywhere. I have a 3/8 butterfly impact wrench, and conventional 1/2 and 3/4 impact wrenches—all made in Japan and the industry standard. Craftsman and Blue Point air tools were made by them back when I was wrenching for money.

Their US-based (but made in China) competition is Ingersoll Rand. My compressor is an IR, but I think it was made in India.

The better Harbor Freight brands are made in Taiwan, I seem to recall, but stuff isn’t marked any more. They actually have a decent reputation. But their cheapest stuff is the luck of the draw.

Rick “still needs to replace the anvil on that wrench and has one ordered” Denney

[Doc]

Grade school? Did you mean grad school? I don't know of any calc courses, ever, in grade school. Flying fickle typing fingers or Genius Southern Boy?

I think my drive to actually understand calculus, instead of just getting A's in it like I did, is quite a bit stronger than my drive to be a high level technician on a brass instrument. For one, I'm still capable of understanding calculus probably, and not capable of achieving a high technical level on a brass of any kind.

We had trigonometry, calculus, and physics (and chemistry, advanced chemistry, advanced biology) offered at our high school, although I'm confident our calculus wasn't anything like the college level "power tool" calculus as @Rick Denney described. Texas called these classes "Premium" Courses (today they are called AP - Advanced Placement - Courses), and every college-bound student was highly "encouraged" to take them, and students were highly "encouraged" to go to college.

[humBell]

Calculus in grade school isn't unheard of.

https://cse.umn.edu/mathcep/about-umtymp

(sorry from diverting from the musical content... what can i do to return)

What should we do about bad music?

I had a high school friend who composed stuff in subsequent years. I confess i found it rather inaccessible myself, but wish i had heard more of it and supported it. He took musical inspiration from politics, so i really had no expectation i would find it comprehensible.

[hrender]

We had calc as a subject in FL high schools in the '70s, but it was just the one class offered mostly to seniors. I didn't take calc until 1st year of college, where I took it as a co-req for the intro physics class for majors. Would have been better to make it a pre-req since I floundered in the class without a solid calc background. It was assumed if you were planning on majoring in physics you were proficient in calc already, which I was not. Again, this was late '70s and early '80s. When my son was in high school 40 years later they offered calc starting in grade 10, I think, but they started getting algebra introduced to them in the 4th or 5th grade. There's been a lot of pushing more complicated stuff down to the lower grades in the last 20-30 years, probably because things they used to spend time on, like penmanship, are now viewed as obsolete/unnecessary.

Back to the topic: In my community band they made it a practice to introduce almost all of the pieces with some spoken background on the piece and the composer, and we played nothing that was too outré. The intros were all written and read by the wife of one of our lead trumpeters. I think this was done in lieu of putting the info in the program, so we saved on printing costs. It didn't seem to bother the audience, although there were times I thought the intros could've been shorter.

[bloke]

Military bands nearly always have a tall handsome Lyle-Waggoner-ish soldier with a deep voice up there who briefly announces each piece (perhaps with one or two sentences of info)...
...and all of the pieces are palatable and engaging...
...and they play usually play a little bit of "outside" stuff, which IS palatable and engaging.

[Doc]

Military bands nearly always have a tall handsome Lyle-Waggoner-ish soldier with a deep voice up there who briefly announces each piece (perhaps with one or two sentences of info)...
...and all of the pieces are palatable and engaging...
...and they play usually play a little bit of "outside" stuff, which IS palatable and engaging.

It's interesting how most audiences don't care for entire shows of "outside" stuff, but if you keep giving them the "good" stuff, they are often understanding/forgiving/tolerant/open/don't mind/whatever the occasional outside stuff. Just like a band playing a dance or a show - unless it is expressly (and known ahead of time) an all-originals band - if you play the hits/standards/favorites all night, you can likely slip an original once or twice as long as you don't overdo it. After a long set list, you can say something like, "Here's one of our own songs. We want to play it for you and see what you think." Or don't say anything at all, and let them think it's standard fare. Pay attention to the reactions and feedback, then STFU and get back in your lane, as a paid dance or show is not Open Mic Night or Singer/Songwriter Night down at the local hippie coffee bar.