Mienl Weston 2165 deck vs 6450 baer

[LargeTuba]

Can someone who’s tried both the 2165 Deck and the 6450 Baer tell me if there is any differences between the two? Other than the placement of the 5th valve they both look almost identical to me. Is any one mode superior than the other?

[JC2]

The are very different instruments. I've owned a 2165 (and tried two others) and had access to a 6450/2 for a week.

2165
This was Warren Deck's signature model released in the 90's. Huge dark sound, very free blowing. I had trouble properly filling up the low register. Great tuba if you have the skill to play it, but probably too big for most folks (me included). Listen to the NYPO recordings from the 90's to get a sense of what this instrument was designed for.

6450/2
Quite a bit smaller than the 2165. Much easier to play with good clarity. Brightens up quicker as you increase the dynamic. Personally not my favourite 6/4 sized instrument but it's a top quality instrument with a very easy response. Have a listen to NYPO recordings after 2008? (not sure on the year) to hear it in action.

Design differences
2165 - Bigger lead pipe, Larger bell and bottom bow, Faster expansion on the main tuning slide. Heavier weight.
6450 - Smaller lead pipe, Slightly smaller bell and bottom bow, less expansion on the main slide with the 5th valve placed after the slide. 6450/2 is handmade (lighter weight).

Try both for yourself

[bloke]

I'm pretty sure that (unless subtle differences) the bugle past the dogleg is the same.

smaller things on 6540:
- mouthpipe
- main slide
- dogleg (small end is smaller / large end is the same)
- bell (unless a 2165 has that original-version huge/heavy "donut" in it).
I'm thinking that the 6560 uses the Fafner bell, whereas the 2165 is a knock-off of a Holton 345 bell.

There are other differences, but those other ones (to me) are small potatoes.
6450
- much less heavy guard wire stuff on the bottom
- bits of black string hanging from slides
- slightly different ways in which the valveset circuits project upward
- some are handmade of sheet metal
- all are silver plated
- etc.

[matt g]

One can be purchased with a reasonable amount of money on the used market.

[bloke]

I don’t think it would be possible to put a fifth valve in the 6450 place on the 2165, because the 2165 bore size in that location is 24 mm.

[bort2.0]

While we're at it, what's the difference between the 2165 and 2265? Leadpipe...? @the elephant , didn't you use a 2265 for a while?

[bloke]

I’m thinking the only difference between those is the Fafner bell on the 2265.

[the elephant]

Mine was built by Mr. Deck at his home and was a precursor to what MW released as the 2265 years later. It has a Fafnir bell, a piston section from an MW 2000 that nestled into the bugle a bit deeper and helped the balance a lot. (The 4th slide is wrapped a little differently, I think.) It had a 45SLP leadpipe, The low register was very stiff, but I think that after I sold it, Joe put a new dogleg, MTS crook, and large side leg set on it, improving it greatly.

Here are my Holton 345 and the 6-valved 2165 that Joe hot-rodded. Below that photo is a pic of my old 2265 prototype when I bought it.

[bloke]

I remember cjk pointing out that slightly different valve set, I do remember how “skinny“ the instrument was/is – back to front.
I don’t believe he still owns it, and don’t know who does.
I’m thinking that his singular behemoth - now - is that Rudy C (that I played for a while and offered to him, as he is a Rudy fan. Some might remember that I documented a 50% detachable mouthpipe swap-out option on that instrument.)
This last paragraph is off-topic, but I would be interested to know as to which mouthpipe he eventually settled on using.
——-
back to the 2165 thing:
Though they are absurdly heavy, I believe personally that - of the 3 bells used with that (mostly the same parts) model(s), the original Holton 345 knock-off bell - WITH that lathe-turned tone ring inserted - sounded the best of all.
2165
- Holton-shaped bell with tone ring
- Holton shaped bell without tone ring
2265
- Fafner bell
6450
- Fafner bell
(My OWN formerly-owned 2165 featured an after the fact installed/saved-back-from-being-removed-from-another-bell tone ring virtually (a token amount of money) given to me by “uncle beer”. I never soldered it in place, but it was held in place with a couple of pieces of double-sided tape.
————————-
I’m wandering off topic again, but not that far:
I’ve passed on several chances to buy Meinl-Weston Fafner B-flat tubas over the years at lower prices than I just paid for a Miraphone 98, as I’ve found their sound to be lacking. It’s funny: I just had an email discussion with Christian Niedermayer of Miraphone - who is very complementary of the Fafner, but also admitted – without prompting – that the sound of it is “missing something“.
That’s why I waited and waited (and waited) for an affordable-to-me deal on a Miraphone 98 (and have never been interested in a Miraphone 497 – just for what it’s worth). I view the 98 as an amazing blend of German “Kaiser“ and American “B-flat grand bass” sonic characteristics (and with intonation characteristics that far outrun most of either of the others).
=========
OK… I went off topic, but I was still discussing the bells used on the instruments that are on topic.

[the elephant]

[I might have to get one of those 98s myself. I still, after all these decades, prefer a big BBb tuba to a big CC tuba. The 98 is the Siegfried, yes?]
____________________

Yes, I agree, the Fafnir bell solved some of the issues the 2165 had, but the tone was very bland and, well, harsh. All 2165 model tubas, regardless of the bell, feel/sound like that to my ear. I don't really enjoy playing them, or *any* of the MW fare, except for the little 182 and the 32. I guess I'm not much of a "Melton Fan Boi"…

Also, concerning the two compared horns (2165/2265 and the 6450) and all "Big Valve" tubas: I *really* dislike using these valves. I will not spend my money on a tuba if it has these valves. I find it comical that Gerhard chose to use the same piston set for pretty much all of his piston tubas over the years, regardless of size. That is pure laziness on his part. Or cheapness. Probably cheapness. I think it's a rather stupid idea. Seeing these on a 2165 and a 45SLP makes me laugh at how tuba players will buy anything if it has front pistons, even if those pistons have no business on a particular tuba.

The decision to paste a "Big Valve" set onto an F tuba ranks right up there with Kanstul marrying those marching tuba piston blocks to all of his upper-line tubas, ending up with all sorts of silliness in tubing layout, rather than just tooling up a dedicated concert tuba piston set.

Stupid.

And I think it helped to kill his company, to be honest.

I have never played a 6450, but can tell you without a doubt that I would not like it if it has a Fafner bell and a "Big Valve" piston set. That is $35,000 worth of NOPE for me.

IT'S JUST MY OPINION, PEOPLE. DON'T HAVE A CONNIPTION FIT!

[LargeTuba]

A new Baer will run you about $17,000.

they cut their prices in about half.

But point taken.

[the elephant]

$34,500+ is the current price for a 6450/2 at one of the big-box sites. (WWBW? One of those places.) I have no interest in getting one, so a $17,000 price is just as much "nope" for me as the one I quoted. Where did you get that price, from, BTW?

[bloke]

I don't like the "we professionals" perspective nor attitude.

There are a couple of players in the "friendly-to-me-community-band" (perhaps most who either regularly or occasionally show up) who could play most gigs, and one - a FINE player - who I would use as a sub for myself (as I'm not one of those paranoid people who suggests barely-adequate people as subs )

The point being that there are tons of musicians (superb musicians, who diligently practice and whose ears are very well-attuned) who aren't interested in playing paid engagements.

THOSE POINTS HAVING BEEN MADE...

I'm now beginning to discover ("the few, the proud") the rare Siegfried owners (in the US). MOST (all??) of them seem to somewhat well-to-do people who just spent the dough (probably $12,500 - when first introduced a decade ago...probably the equivalent of at least $18,000 today) and got one - because [1] it knocked their socks off, [2] they had the dough, and [3] (as the "professional American players owning B-flat tubas" thing was barely beginning to emerge at that time, and fine amateur American players tend to not nurse any "C tuba" mindset) they had no narrative-conflicts when playing a great tuba, realizing that it is great, and (simply) buying it (because it's great).

As to the (more recently developed, but not new-on-the-block) 497, it's pretty much a textbook central European "kaiser" instrument, and (me...??) having spent what I did, I just wanted "what I spent my money for" to be less of a singular-purpose instrument. Additionally (as edfirth likes to comment on my opinions and my troll-posts) for "whatever" it's worth (though the 497 looks "prettier" and more "normal" than a 98 - and SO MANY PRODUCTS...all sorts of products...are sold MOSTLY from "curb-appeal"), I just find the 98 to be a better instrument (overall) than a 497.

...I just don't think I'm "hurting" Miraphone by expressing this opinion:
- I'm a NOBODY who earns a scant $XX,XXX to mid-$1X,XXX (as a "sideline") annually playing the tuba, and - as our rulers render our currency more-and-more worth-less - my playing income - numerically - remains somewhat static
- If people (rather than auto-buying a 497) consider a 98 instead, who ends up with the sale...?? (still: Miraphone)

I'm not a "practice room jock"...I do quite a few OTHER things (well...because I prefer to not live in a boarding house and other reasons), and - if I'm going to use this/that/the-other tuba, that tuba NEEDS to be EASY to play. The 98 tuba is NOT my easiEST-to-play tuba (that honor should be bestowed on my F tuba, fwiw), but (compared to most everything else in it's approximate size range and B-flat length) it IS the easi-EST that I've found.

One last thing about "professionals" and "big B-flat tubas".
Though quite a few (USA) "professionals" are now interested enough in them to actually acquire them, I'm noting that (even the $XXX,XXX sorts who get them) are being conservative about what they are spending. Two such people I personally know (based on the "big B-flat tubas" that they now own) probably (??) spent under $4K acquiring those instruments...not that those instruments aren't "good", but their other instruments cost several multiples of that - telling me that they still view their B-flat tubas as (perhaps?) an "accessory"...(a bit like one might view a cimbasso...??) Though my income and patrons are minuscule (compared to those just mentioned anonymously), I'm moving into "the B-flat thing" as NOT just another parenthetical or accessorizing instrument.

...my 5/4 piston C instrument...??
MUCH easier to "get around on" than the Siegfried 98, but also "MUCH less of a sonic footprint"...and the same goes for the various 6/4 C instruments that I've owned/played/etc. (Were my B-flat button-mashing just a BIT more automatic, the difference in those instruments' innate facility/flexibility might prove to be even less than I'm currently experiencing.)

LAST set of comments (I promise...)
MOST OF THE TIME, when complimented after a concert (by anyone ranging from "I-don't-know-anything-about-music-but-I-know-what-I-like" patrons to an orchestra's concertmaster) it's NOT been on a bunch of fast notes nor high notes, it has ALWAYS been some (relatively slow-moving) solo passage OR a group of 3 - 5 VERY prominent notes.
...a few years ago (playing all-cimbasso in a Nelson-Riddle-style orchestra - 4th 'bone book - in a 60's-era-Vegas-music concert)...
them: "WOW...that was FANTASTIC !!!!"
me: uh...
them: "You know...!?!?!"
me: "ok...I'm not sure..."
them: "BOMM - BOMM - BOOOOOOMM !!!!!!" (the E-flat, G, A-flat in the Elvis "An American Trilogy" thing )

[LargeTuba]

$34,500+ is the current price for a 6450/2 at one of the big-box sites. (WWBW? One of those places.) I have no interest in getting one, so a $17,000 price is just as much "nope" for me as the one I quoted. Where did you get that price, from, BTW?

Mienl Weston is cutting out the middle man and selling direct to consumer. The new price is 16,960.

Thor: $13,250
Pt-6: $10,855
Fafner (handmade): $11,660
MrP-CC: $13,250
B&S MrP-F: $10,600
2182 F: $7,500

Ive seen a lot of used instruments go for more than their new price recently.

[tubanh84]

LAST set of comments (I promise...)
MOST OF THE TIME, when complimented after a concert (by anyone ranging from "I-don't-know-anything-about-music-but-I-know-what-I-like" patrons to an orchestra's concertmaster) it's NOT been on a bunch of fast notes nor high notes, it has ALWAYS been some (relatively slow-moving) solo passage OR a group of 3 - 5 VERY prominent notes.
...a few years ago (playing all-cimbasso in a Nelson-Riddle-style orchestra - 4th 'bone book - in a 60's-era-Vegas-music concert)...
them: "WOW...that was FANTASTIC !!!!"
me: uh...
them: "You know...!?!?!"
me: "ok...I'm not sure..."
them: "BOMM - BOMM - BOOOOOOMM !!!!!!" (the E-flat, G, A-flat in the Elvis "An American Trilogy" thing )

Best response I got from an audience member was after the Festive Overture. Nothing flashy about it at all, but it's full of opportunities to get your sound out into the hall.

[bloke]

$34,500+ is the current price for a 6450/2 at one of the big-box sites. (WWBW? One of those places.) I have no interest in getting one, so a $17,000 price is just as much "nope" for me as the one I quoted. Where did you get that price, from, BTW?

Mienl Weston is cutting out the middle man and selling direct to consumer. The new price is 16,960.

Thor: $13,250
Pt-6: $10,855
Fafner (handmade): $11,660
MrP-CC: $13,250
B&S MrP-F: $10,600
2182 F: $7,500

Ive seen a lot of used instruments go for more than their new price recently.

Jinbao (et al, I predict) will soon do the same.
"You westerners tell us what to build and how well to build it. We'll sort out your brilliant suggestions from your idiotic ones - based on volume sold of various models, and then cut your asses out. In the meantime, all of your western factories (same as with all other types of products) will have been shuttered."

Thor:
Mine's not for sale, but - if it ever is - I'm not selling it for less than the price of a new one. Someone can have a new one sent to them - on approval - and compare it - back-to-back - to mine.

retailing: (of most anything)
probably soon to become obsolete
Salesmen consider their jobs to be skilled jobs - and it can be argued that they are...but I've always realized that salesman jobs (as well as live-music-tootin' jobs) are not essential, and have striven to acquire other (somewhat more universally in demand) skills.
To extend this just a bit: Think about the extraordinarily high percentage of people - in the USA - who make their livings typing stuff on keyboards. Many (most?) of those jobs are "important", but nearly all of those jobs are "about" OTHER jobs getting done, and don't actually accomplish those things "about" which they are typing.

[the elephant]

$34,500+ is the current price for a 6450/2 at one of the big-box sites. (WWBW? One of those places.) I have no interest in getting one, so a $17,000 price is just as much "nope" for me as the one I quoted. Where did you get that price, from, BTW?

Mienl Weston is cutting out the middle man and selling direct to consumer. The new price is 16,960.

Thor: $13,250
Pt-6: $10,855
Fafner (handmade): $11,660
MrP-CC: $13,250
B&S MrP-F: $10,600
2182 F: $7,500

Ive seen a lot of used instruments go for more than their new price recently.

Yes, but WHERE did you read this, and where are their prices posted? I have been to the website recently and there are no prices posted on anything.

[bort2.0]

I find it hard to believe that the Fafner handmade is half the price from the factory that it is from a retailer.

Then again, the Euro is at (close to?) a 20-year low against the dollar, so... who knows.

I dunno... someone has to buy this stuff new, or buying new stuff stops being an option altogether.

[matt g]

Where’s this info on Buffet-Crampon selling direct?

[Sousaswag]

I have heard this about Buffet too, selling without a middle man dealer, but only through word of mouth. I don’t remember who told me, either, and I haven’t heard any word on prices. But, supposedly, that IS what they’re doing.