Are some tubas just better (or just not great) for bands?

[2nd tenor]

A Brass Band has four Tuba seats, two for Eb and two for BBb, it has four Tubas in it because that’s what’s needed - with care six can sound even better. One rather hard working and strongish player on Bass, and particularly so if there’s also a strong Bass Trombone player, will just about get the Band by but why struggle like that and why expect the Band to make do with a weak Bass line? Different music groups have their own balance(s) but as a start point surely multiple Tubas is the way to go and should, I think, be standard in Wind Bands.

After a few weeks off with sickness and other obstacles I turned up for rehearsal and to my horror discovered that I was the only Bass playing in that rehearsal. I just got on with things and the Eb Sovereign did a good job, the Conductor made some kind comments towards me at the end of the rehearsal and that was appreciated. Of the Tubas that I’ve played the Sovereign can make the most sound, and a good sound too, but you also have to have and push a lot of air through it.

[bloke]

The way I have the slides set up, 2-4 B-natural is good, and 5-2-3 “low E” is good.
F is 4 and C is 1-3 (with the #1 slide pulled a little bit farther than I pull it for the E-flats).
If I change it, I’m going to have to think about it first. It doesn’t bother me that the patterns are different for this B-flat vs. the compact Holton.
Just like 5234 “low D” with a C tuba, The “low C” on this instrument is terribly sharp. I’d like to come up with some sort of *remedy, but I guess I’m really not playing that pitch very often.
That having been admitted, most open “low-C” pitches on C instruments have a strong tendency to ride sharp as well, do they not?
__________________
* I played Richard Rodgers “Victory at Sea” last night, and the section where it sounds like Rodgers ripped off that slow section from Stravinsky‘s “Rite of Spring” (3/4 time - C downbeats whereby a double low C sounds better than the C below the staff), I simply pulled out the main slide, which was a pretty easy remedy, because I was playing nothing other than those C’s - over and over again - for a while.

Again, as composers now compose with midi keyboards (creating effortless-to-them super low pitches for the tuba) 4+2 set ups for professional (non-compensating) instruments – with the # 1 slide controlled by right hand thumb trigger, and probably also with the 5th valve slide controlled by a left hand thumb trigger - are going to need to become “the thing”.

[dp]

I didn't read the thread, after 7 pages of comments probably everything that can possibly be said, has been. Oops see what I just started to do here?

[cjk]

it pleases me that tubaforum is old enough to dig up old threads.

[bort2.0]

it pleases me that tubaforum is old enough to dig up old threads.

[jtm]

it pleases me that tubaforum is old enough to dig up old threads.

That’s how far I had to dig to find a post with bort dissing a 188.

[Rick Denney]

Unlike Dale, I don't care if a thread goes in circles forever. Newbies only read the last circle in any case, if that much.

Last night, I was at a rehearsal for our concert band (and I say that so our British friends won't mistake it for a brass band). We are accompanying fireworks again this year. Okay, well, "again" means "after the last two years of the event being cancelled". This is outdoors, against background "percussion" and occasional cheering, and without any means of reflecting the sound forward.

I've used the Holton for this gig in the past, but it's a lot of work to make that tuba bark, and for this gig, barking is needed. A sousaphone might work, but I'll be damned if I'm going to suggest it, because I don't want to carry and hold the thing. Aaaaand, we also play America the Beautiful, which has an important low Cb that requires more slide pull than my 14K can muster, especially with me holding it. Aaaaand, we are playing a lead-up set that includes some actually rather difficult music that I think I'd flail around trying to instinctively remember how to play that sort of thing with three valves. But mostly because I just don't want to carry and hold the thing.

Aaaaand, I'm the only tuba player for this gig this year.

The solution for me is a power tuba, something that will pierce armor with its projection. Yup, the Hirsbrunner 193. I need something that will amplify and add enough color to penetrate the ambient noise, but that can still be fairly sensitive during the lead-up set when the noise level will be much lower. But even for that, mp will be the lowest dynamic, and that one will stand for "more power".

Joe's big Miraphone might work pretty well for this gig.

Rick "lazy" Denney

[bloke]

Since I’ve been sitting in on so many of my friends’ community band rehearsals, I have felt obligated to play some of their summer concerts, which have all been at various outdoor locations with no shell.
As much as I would have liked to have taken the big Miraphone 98 (for all sorts of reasons, not the least of which - simply - is “new toy”), i’ve been taking that recording 3-valve compensating Besson (which I hastily - including straightening out some body parts “good enough“ - stuck together from parts of three old Bessons). Its valves are ugly, but they really aren’t leaky. I can’t hear that thing, because it’s outdoors and the bell faces forward (and I don’t even play a note on it until I get to the venue… I’ve hardly messed around with it at home), but at one of the events my friend, Chuck Schulz - who has been playing with the Memphis Symphony since I was in junior high - was at that event and heard it. (Honesty, I have no idea how it sounds.) He himself actually showed up at a rehearsal for the same band a couple of nights ago, and started talking to me about how great that old Besson sounded at that outdoor concert, so I guess I should believe him. (He - a 1960s Ohio State Robert Leblanc student - is not one to just pass out “feel good“ compliments.) With the weight of the recording bell hanging out in the direction that it does and the instrument being taller than my E-flat compensating (also recording), it takes some arm muscles to hold it in place, but I feel like if I play any upright bell tuba - with no ceiling off of which to bounce the sound - I’m wasting my efforts.
I believe this is an example of when it would be easy to claim that an instrument is not good - just because it isn’t particularly comfortable to play, when - in fact - it is quite good indeed.
Having sold quite a few tubas over the years to quite a few people, I believe that – often – the main attracting features are appearance and how instruments feel to play…with less attention given to how they sound.

[bort2.0]

it pleases me that tubaforum is old enough to dig up old threads.

That’s how far I had to dig to find a post with bort dissing a 188.

I've been very consistent my messaging since I sold my 188 in 2014 (and haven't gone back).

For me...
I think it's a fantastic tuba for orchestra.
I think it was too much work for band. I was the only tuba player, in a large, loud band. It could be made to work. But I felt like I was pushing it too hard too often, and have been happier with tubas since then that have an "extra gear of bigness"

And in 2014, I was doing far more band than orchestra, so, I sold it

The last several months, I picked up an orchestra gig again, and for the foreseeable future. Makes me strongly reconsider the 188, except for the fact that the Rudy 5/4 BBb already does the job tremendously well.

May just be a question now of effort vs output. I prefer the output of the Rudy. I prefer the effort of the 188. The effort of the Rudy and the output of the 188 are both, however, quite okay and perfectly acceptable.

Actually though, the real answer is quite simple. I already own the Rudy. So that's sort of over and do e case closed before things go any further than that.

[jtm]

The university I attended has a tradition of one or two summer band concerts each year, where the summer band is a three-evening deal with evening rehearsals Monday and Tuesday and a concert Wednesday. Most of the players were once in that university's bands, but it's not a requirement. Most players tend to be pretty active musically, but that's also not a requirement (this is the first group I played with when I started playing again).

I really like it because a reminder goes out a couple weeks ahead of time and somehow a bunch of people just show up to make a band that is usually pretty well balanced and that sounds pretty good, we have a some quick rehearsals and a show, and then it's done. The directors are good and the rehearsals are efficient, so it's fun rather than frustrating. This usually coincides with one of the university's summer music camps, so we'll have an audience of a couple hundred high school or middle school kids who get to see that people can keep playing for decades after school without being professionals, and that they can do a good pickup show with just a little work.

Anyway..., we did that this week and there were two tubas, both medium size rotary CC. That was perfect for most of the program, balancing a group that could play soft as well as loud. But the show always ends with a few traditional football season pieces, and we were not a match when the rest of the band turned it up to football levels. Four sousaphones would have been about right.

[Tuba1153]

Just got done playing two concerts with a 60 piece concert band. Great players on all instruments. Only had two tubas and we both were on 4/4 Eb tubas.

[bloke]

There's a "new style" King here, right now.
I'm supposed to get it sold, but I'm sorta busy with school repairs...
...I'm sure I'll get it offered for sale in a few weeks.

I would like to align the #1 and #4 slides a bit nicer, and clean it up just a little bit.

I keep forgetting how well these play.

These - arguably (also being a sometimes comp' E-flat player) are a bit closer to a "do everything" tuba than (with all due - and genuine - respect) some E-flat-only players claim their instruments to be.

[Tuba1153]

There's a "new style" King here, right now.
I'm supposed to get it sold, but I'm sorta busy with school repairs...
...I'm sure I'll get it offered for sale in a few weeks.

I would like to align the #1 and #4 slides a bit nicer, and clean it up just a little bit.

I keep forgetting how well these play.

These - arguably (also being a sometimes comp' E-flat player) are a bit closer to a "do everything" tuba than (with all due - and genuine - respect) some E-flat-only players claim their instruments to be.

I had my doubts that an Eb would work well in a concert band. With two of us playing Eb, it worked well, especially with the smaller, more Wind Ensemble size group. When the band is back in the fall with 80 to 90 folks, including 4 additional CC/BBb tubas, the 2 Eb’s add color to the group.


2 Eb’s and 3 BBb’s

[bloke]

Having been working to become accustomed to this giant Miraphone B-flat (that I recently acquired), the King feels particularly facile…
… as does my similarly-sized Holton B-flat.

[bloke]

(just throwing this out there because I’m sort of tired of talking about sizes and models and makes of tubas to use in bands)

Mostly, some NOTES just aren't good for bands (like "tenor-saxophone-G-naturals-in-G-flat-major-chords" and "30-cents-sharp trumpet ones").

tubas: don't matter a whit...They're just an "effect", right...??
remember: the nonsense/old-school/never-was-true "tubas are to be felt, and not heard" b.s...??



bloke "...but my favorite is the complete misinterpretation/misunderstanding of 'I pull slides for tone, rather than tuning' thing"

[MN_TimTuba]

We just finished our 4th outdoor concert of the summer.
Paul and I have been section mates for over 30 years, now, and I think we complement one another very well, playing to each other's strengths/weaknesses (he's the finesse, I'm the energy). During that time we've each gone thru several tubas (including 2 Miraphones, an Eastman, my Holton, a Yamaha) we've settled on near-matching new model King 2341's. Matching pitch has never been easier. One thing we're doing consistently is using Paul's King as an Eb, i.e. he plays upper split parts and I play the lower (often dropping another octave when an organ-like sound seems right). We both think we'd like to try it with an actual Eb.
I also think that 2 tubas playing in 5th's or octaves sound better - and cut thru better - than 2 tubas playing unison.
But I might be wrong.
Tim

[bloke]

I’ve only had two standmates – in all the decades I’ve played – where unisons actually sounded good…because they actually were unisons.

Both of them were high school standmates.

One of them was the one I’ve told everyone about over and over - who took his fiberglass sousaphone and auditioned into Pershing’s Own in the 12th grade before ever having any private instruction, and the other one was a year younger than me, attended a university with me for about a year and a half, grew very weary of it, quit, and auditioned into a an Army band in Germany - playing tuba and electric bass.
The DC band guy (though he bought a 186 B-flat after auditioning into the Army… I believe he was strongly encouraged to play one of those really difficult to play Hirsbrunner C tubas - which the Army owned) didn’t own a tuba, obviously, and the younger one – sure enough – owned a four valve King recording bass. Of course, it was one of the old 1241 instruments with the #1 and #3 circuits which were way too long. He grew tired of having it at the school – and when I was in the 12th grade they dropped off a new Reynolds TB – 10 (same as Olds O-99), so he ended up playing that a lot. I went back-and-forth between a Conn fiberglass sousaphone 36K, a really leaky three valve upright bell King, and one of those tiny little Miraphone 3-valve top-action model 1270 tubas.

bloke “only the very finest, for me… The obvious plus side being that city property taxes – for just about everyone, back then – was casual money… and hey: we had all we deserved and all we needed.”