Buffing Compound?

[King Conn]

Hello everyone!

Today, I need to know a good compound to use while buffing. I was told buffing rogue by an acquaintance from one of the tuba subreddits. What kind of buffing rogue would you all suggest? I don’t want anything too rough of course, just enough to buff off some crud that wouldn’t polish off with brasso, an old rag, and good ol’ fashion elbow grease. I was thinking something along the lines of the buffing rogue that’s meant for jewelry or something similar.

Any suggestions or advice?

Any and all help would be appreciated!

Thanks in advance!

[bloke]

Tripoli cuts through patina fast, but is absolutely safe with a wimpy motor (ex. 1/2 hp - 1750 rpm)

https://www.ebay.com/p/1401307904?iid=251478095521

Red jeweler's rouge is that with which a mirror finish is obtained.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Red-Rouge-Bar- ... 3573785971

There are other grits, but you will do fine - getting rid of the brown FAST with tripoli, and (if you want to shine it up, so your fingerprints will show reeelll guud) the rouge is what shines.

Tripoli, typically, is applied to "hard" (spiral-sewn reinforced) muslin buffing wheels, whereas red rouge is typically applied to center-sewn (loose/soft) flannel buffing wheels.

To avoid "getting into" messy buffing, though, you could go to AutoZone and buy some 1500 or 2000 grit sandpaper, and sand away that stubborn patina with valve oil on that superfine grit sandpaper. Those grits offer the tiniest of scratches, which Brasso can actually remove.

[LeMark]

I use the green extra fine bar just because that's what I have the most of. It will take out scratches from steel wool and sandpaper and leave a nice shine. Not sure if it's better for shine than red Rouge or not

[bloke]

I use the green extra fine bar just because that's what I have the most of. It will take out scratches from steel wool and sandpaper and leave a nice shine. Not sure if it's better for shine than red Rouge or not

Somewhere, I have some old-old (1970's-bought) cakes of green.
As is apparent, I've rarely used them. They are not "bad" (just fine!)...but it's sorta like having a nearly-as-good and nearly-the-same tuba.

Red is the ultimate for final polishing, but is not considered very effective at all for cut-downs.

I typically go from tripoli straight to red rouge...I suspect that quite a few others do as well.
Intermediate grades, mostly, just take out streaks, lines, and smears. That can be done with a tripoli wheel - combined with good techniques.
One thing that I do (to get avoid some of the required hand-ragging) is to apply tripoli to a center-sewn wheel on both/either a high-power/high-speed and low-power/low-speed machine. When using extreme care, a center-sewn wheel can be flexed into some otherwise unreachable areas.

[King Conn]

Alright, thank you all so much!

I’m still not completely sure what I should use, so I’ll describe what I’m going to buff (unfortunately no pictures at this time), and my equipment/compounds, which I’ll include pictures of because I have them with me. Any help to do with buffing in general would honestly be greatly appreciated because I’m just getting into buffing. I’m trying to move a step up with my work and move into buffing/re-finishing work, dent work, and solder work territory, instead of what I’ve been doing since I’ve gotten into repair work, which is just cleaning, minor alignments, etc.... just generally getting things either working in general or working very, very smoothly. Just like new at times (except cosmetically).

Anyways, here’s my equipment and what’s going on. I have several major projects in working on right now. I’m not sure if I’ll buff all of them yet, but I’ll defiantly be buffing a few. I have a Conn 15J, Conn 36K, A King sousa with the infamous red lacquer, a Holton trumpet (and several other trumpets), and a very, very old Olds trombone. Right now, I’m concerned most with the Olds trombone, and a load of trumpets. Everything else I’m just going to strip the lacquer and leave as-is. That’s what I’m thinking for now, at least. The buffer I have is only 1/2 HP. I bought three different compounds. A grey, brown, and green one. Grey says fast cut, brown says tripoly, and the green just says buffing compound. I have 3 different buffing pads as well. They’re all stitched, but are various strengths, I’ll put it that way. They’re all cloth, and I’m pretty sure made of cotton. One is a very loose stitch, the other two are a much tighter stitch. One is really tight and the other is a very spaced out, loose stitch, that leaves maybe an inch un-stitched on the edge. The two looser ones came with the buffer, and have this soft, fuzzy texture on the edge. The Olds trombone I’m really focused on has the weirdest buildup I’ve encountered so far. It’s this giant, black, crusty buildup that’s won’t polish or scrape off. I’ve figured it would probably buff off though, so I’m going to try it. I’m pretty sure it’s just part of the patina, which looks really bad because it is so uneven. Not sure how that happened. As for the trumpets, they’re just a kinda tarnished with a patina in some spots, and then a bunch of spotty lacquer on the rest of the thing that I’ll need to remove. As promised, here are the photos I have of my equipment & compounds:

If anyone doesn’t mind, could you please help me out with which compound I should use on which buffer and on which project? Thanks so much for all the help! If pictures are needed of the horns themselves, I can get them tomorrow, since everything is at the school.

[the elephant]

Joe told you above.

Tripoli for the initial stuff, including the patina. Use a stiff, radially stitched buff when you use a brown cutting compound that is called tripoli.

The mirror-like finish you see under lacquer from most factories is achieved through the use of the red rouge compound AFTER you have removed all the patina and scratches, scuffs, etc. Whereas the tripoli is called cutting compound, rouge is used for "color buffing" and is the final step. You must use unstitched cotton or flannel buffs with this stuff. The buffs must be soft and fluffy (well, as compared to the hard, stitched buffs uses for the cutting compound.

There are like a dozen different colors/grades of buffing compound, but most are for hard metals like stainless steel or mild steel. Others are for softer alloys like brass and other copper-based alloys, and some are for things like aluminum.

Stick with tripoli and rouge and you will be good. White and black rouges are not needed unless you are buffing out nickel (NOT nickel silver, which is a copper alloy very close to brass) and the green stuff is more for things like stainless. I have some that came in a packet of different "flavors" from Harbor Freight. In ten years I have never opened it. Stick with tripoli and red rouge.

You need a buffer that runs between about 1200 and 3100 rpm, 6" or more. An 8" buffer is much better because the arbors are much longer in general, but it is hard to find an inexpensive 8" buffer. Harbor Freight has a 6" buffer that has NO GUTS for work requiring any pressure but works very well for small parts and assemblies. It is cheap, but you get what you pay for. I use a Baldor 6" and hope to one day get the 8" as it is much more what I need to work on tubas.

I also use the two compounds with my Dremel. You can purchase stitched and unstitched buffs that are VERY handy.

Lastly, I have a buffer I made out of an air die grinder with an arbor made to accept 2" and 3" buffs from Home Depot. I use this for a lot of stuff after something large and heavy has been assembled and now needs a final buffing. I can lay the tuba across my bench (outside) and use the air die grinder all I need, and it can get into some unexpectedly tight spaces. I have both stitched and unstitched wheels and use both compounds. This saves me a lot of time ragging (or strapping) as I can get the basic mess cleaned, the basic color buffing done, and then the strapping is much faster and easier for me.

Here is a pic of the die grinder buffer that runs off my air compressor. There is a radially stitched buff on it that is used with cutting compound.

Good luck. Buffing takes some in-person training. If you just go out and try to buff you will likely ruin your workpiece by either buffing too much metal off, or allowing the floor buffer to grab a part out of your hands. If this happens and you are next to a wall it can throw the sharp tube end around and into your face, causing you to have to visit the ER. (I am not kidding. Buffing is advanced stuff and can be dangerous.) If you buff outside like I do the part can be snatched from your hands and flung across the yard. I once destroyed a rotary valve casing when I screwed up and allowed the buffer to snatch it from me and fling it down my driveway at about 50 MPH. Major. FUBAR.

[King Conn]

Alright, thanks. For some reason, for me to understand what I’m being taught, It usually has to be explained to me several different ways by several different people before I start to understand. That probably isn’t normal, but it is how I learn, so I wanted to make sure that I was for certain, learning and understanding correctly what I was being taught. This way I don’t chance screwing up on error of having the wrong compound(s), buffer pads, buffer, etc.

My buffer is the 6” that comes from harbor freight. It says is runs at 3,450 RPM, with 1/2 HP. Of course you’ve likely already seen the compounds I got yesterday, also from harbor freight. I wasn’t sure of the exact one I needed, so I got the 3 that said it could be used on brass that by their descriptions sounded like I could use it in some way throughout time.

From my understanding of what everyone altogether has said, this is what I’ve gathered. Please, please, please, someone correct me if I am wrong. If all I’m needing to do is remove the patina, brown tripoli on the more tightly-stitched buffing pads on a 1/2 HP buffer is what I should use, right? I have the 1/2 HP buffer as I already stated. Now here’s another question if my understanding is indeed correct. All 3 compounds I got are from harbor freight. Not the best quality of everything comes form there I know, but it should suffice for now. I am just starting out, after all. One of those 3 compounds I got is a brown one, and it says “Tripoly compound” on it. Would this be the same as brown Tripoli? Or would it be too different or something of that sort?

And yikes. Yeah, defiantly don’t want to be making any trips to the ER or shooting projects across rooms. For now, the thing I am MAINLY concerned with buffing is the trombone. Trumpets and tubas can wait until whenever I feel like it, if I feel like it. I would be wearing proper safety gear when doing this of course, no loose clothing & proper safety goggles. I would be likely be indoors while buffing, although that just depends on where I decide to buff. If I brought the thing home, it would be half inside, half outside in my garage, with the garage doors open. I won’t be by myself when buffing, so at least I’ll have some help if needed, as well as the fact that I’ve watched it being done a few times before, so I do have a general understating of what I need to do. If not, and if I get confused in the slightest about how to do the work itself or properly operate the thing (which I probably won’t), all I have to do is make one quick phone call to my grandfather who bought the buffer and pads for me as a gift to get started, and who is also starting to teach me to solder, weld, do some auto work, woodwork, and a bunch of other fun stuff.

Anyways, thanks for all the help so far everyone! I really do appreciate it. It just tends to be a headache to teach me things sometimes, so sorry for that on my part.

[the elephant]

Watch a lot of videos.

Practice on junk parts for a long time.

One of them *will* be forcefully ripped out of your hands. It will happen too quickly for you to react. You *must* work using the sweet spot on the wheel. All other areas are dangerous to use.

Facing the buffer, think of a sideways clock. The top is 12:00, with 3:00 being the front edge of the wheel, the bit that sticks out toward the technician's belly the most. Nine is to the rear, and 6:00 is straight down. You must stay between 3:00 and 6:00 pretty much all the time. The wheel turns from behind the machine over the top toward your face. The workpiece, if grabbed, will be shot down hard into the floor, unless it is momentarily held by the wheel. If this happens it generally is flung away from the machine somewhere between 8:00 (almost straight back) to about 10:00, meaning over the top of the wheel into your neck or face.

[I have been to the ER for this once when I was buffing the inside face of the crook of a euphonium slide. It was grabbed and the sharp tube end embedded in my jaw, completely cutting through all the tissue and muscle. I could not play for a month. I thought my orchestral career was over. This is seriously dangerous stuff. I am absolving myself of any responsibility right here and now if you hurt yourself.]



With that in mind, you must always keep your workpiece below the horizontal (like 3:30 or 4:00) and never allow it to pass beyond the vertical at 6:00. I rarely move out of the 4:00/5:00 zone unless the piece is easy to work with and hold or I am willing to see it shot across my yard.

Again, watch videos. Lots of them.

And reading this would be a decent idea, too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polishing_(metalworking)

[iiipopes]

Be careful. At the risk of further damage to the bell, I would never use a rogue rouge.

[bloke]

I have a collection of machines around the wall, which I've picked up - over the years - when someone had something stupid-good for a stupid-low price.

One is a bad-ass 3-phase buffer/grinder combo ($25 at an auction) - with an electronic 3-phase converter which I mounted on the wall. Its a multi-horse motor with a moderate speed (I can't remember...maybe around 2500 rpms...??) and is direct drive with an enclosed housing. Our building back in Memphis had 3-phase service (evident outside a building typically by three transformers up on the building's servicing telephone pole), but - out here at blokeplace - I'm just not going to pay to have that service put in place. Another way to run 3-phase equipment is to mechanically create the "third leg", buy hooking one single-phase motor to another one with an engage/release clutch on the drive belt. The powered motor gets the other one going, the other one then acts as a generator, and then the clutch on the belt is released. At first it almost seems like perpetual motion, but obviously it is not. Again, I have an electronic 3-phase converter, and NOT a two-motor "rigged" mechanical converter (as just previously described).

Another buffer is a belt-driven (NOT enclosed housing, NOT direct drive) one which I made height adjustable (as it was LOW, because a guy in a wheelchair previously owned it). I never adjust the height, and just have it "up" where it's "good". That one has a couple of pulleys for two speeds, and the shaft has threads on both ends for two wheels (handy: rouge and tripoli). I have a 2hp 220v motor on it (with cooling fins) that is 3450 RPM and the two pull speeds are full (balls-to-the-wall) and stepped down to 2700 or so (still pretty fast). Any faster, and 8" wheels (which I buy of varying types...and then - when worn down to 6", transfer them over to slower lower-powered machines) just tend to sling the compound off, rather than retaining it.

Another one is a 3/4 hp 3450, which is fast but fairly weak...ie. it clutches out, when stressed (ie. the person buffing presses the item hard against the wheel) very much. It's good for certain types of things...It's also a two-spindle, but very short arms. It was originally set up as a double grinder.

The last one is also a short-arm two-spindle and it's a slow/weak 110V machine for treacherous things or for buffing small/delicate things...like woodwind keys, etc.

The door to the room (simply) is an aluminum screen door, and there's a 220V (fast rpms) exhaust fan in the wall - with exterior louvers, that takes away most all the $h!t. The exhaust now heads into that "new" animal shelter (I'm building) documented in the "Lounge" forum. I'm going to put a thermostat on that fan, so that it moves air in that animal shelter when it gets 95 degrees or hotter under there...but (duh) also an override switch to turn it on for (well...) buffing.

Probably 95% or more of the buffing that I do is with tripoli. Anyone who's on a rouge wheel all day doesn't know how to use rouge...and rouge is MESSY, and gets in your pores and gets in your mattress, and gets ...well... (I get in the tub, and use DAWN on my skin... )
oh...Just fwiw...I hate buffing.

bloke "and you ain't gonna get far buffing a tuba with those cute little (and expensive) Ban Roll-on buffing thingies... 'Real' buffing compound bars are the size of house bricks, with rouge bars being a bit narrower."

[the elephant]

I use those large Formax tripoli bricks for grunt work, and Dialux rouge and their "orange" compound. It is called Vornex, which doesn't translate to anything, so who knows what it means? The Vornex is milder than actual Tripoli, but it removes soldering mess faster and easier with a minimal loss of brass; it seems to love to eat lead.

I hate buffing, too. If I make any sort of mess with the solder, after I wipe off the removable excess I will lightly sand just the silver-colored bits. Then I use the Dremel to spot-buff with the Dialux Vornex. (While the label is orange the brick is black, but it is not their black compound, so whatever.) If I am removing patina or just "buffing" I first use a burnisher as much as my hands can stand. It is slow work but removes no metal. Once the horn has been burnished I then will buff it very lightly with the Dialux rouge. I never lacquer, so I never worry about a "mirror finish" since it will have a patina again very soon. I just try for a very clear, even finish and then hope to remember to wipe the horn down after each use and use Pledge on occasion.

If I don't want the hassle of the buffer I will burnish more thoroughly and then hand-polish with Simichrome.

In the end, I rarely use rouge. It takes the horn to a higher level of luster than I normally desire (removing additional metal in the process), and the penalty is having crap up my nose, in my ears, tear ducts, and deeply embedded in my skin. If I wear a polycarbonate face mask and a hairnet the rouge will turn the net pink and will be embedded on the face shield when finished, and my hair and face will still be packed with mama's rouge. It is terrible trying to get it out of your sinus cavities. I have to shower with Dawn and a stiff brush to get it all off of me, and my clothes have to be washed twice in loads by themselves. Then we have to do a tub wash sequence so the next load is not pink when finished.

Color buffers at the factories are usually very highly paid folks for a reason; their work is generally backbreaking and sucks to do all day.

[LeMark]

Tomorrow I'm going to go out into the building and take a photo of my buffer. I need recommendations for replacement buffing wheels

[the elephant]

Give this a read. It will help you figure stuff out. I buy some of my compounds and wheels here, too. I also buy from Amazon and (on occasion) Ferree's Tools. (But only on the random occasion.)

https://caswellplating.com/buffman.htm

Here is their booklet. It is of some use.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/k65812sbuun2a ... k.pdf?dl=0

After you know more you can look for better stuff or lower prices on your own, but Caswell will get you started.

[bloke]

wheels, speeds, compounds, and techniques are individual choices...based on experience or (if any) "under whom someone may have apprenticed".

The exception is factories. Factories have the "their way is the only way" thing.

I also like to use 1/2" wide braided lamp wick (with tripoli) and worn-out T-shirt (with rouge) for reaching remote areas.

oh yeah: I HATE "remote areas", too...but I LIKE cheating (in "remote areas") with 1500 - 2000 grit sandpaper with lamp oil on it.

[the elephant]

wheels, speeds, compounds, and techniques are individual choices...based on experience or (if any) "under whom someone may have apprenticed".

The exception is factories. Factories have the "their way is the only way" thing.

I also like to use 1/2" wide braided lamp wick (with tripoli) and worn-out T-shirt (with rouge) for reaching remote areas.

oh yeah: I HATE "remote areas", too...but I LIKE cheating (in "remote areas") with 1500 - 2000 grit sandpaper with lamp oil on it.

I do a lot of strapping, too. I use Simichrome with some tripoli or some rouge on the wicking. I have found that that air tool I put together can get into a lot of places after sanding. The Dremel, with one of those flex-drive mini handle things, can get into even more. I have to strap a lot less often thanks to those two mini-buffers.

I also bought a Milwaukee arbor that fits my Dremel chuck that holds 2" heads. I have not yet tried it out with buffs. I used it to cut out some captured shock absorber bolts inside my jeep's frame rails years ago. It allowed me to use the larger heads with the smaller tool, giving me a much larger accessible area to work in. Perhaps I will try these 2" stitched buffs on the dental-tool-sized Dremel flex-drive at some point.

[York-aholic]

The door to the room (simply) is an aluminum screen door, and there's a 220V (fast rpms) exhaust fan in the wall - with exterior louvers, that takes away most all the $h!t. The exhaust now heads into that "new" animal shelter (I'm building) documented in the "Lounge" forum. I'm going to put a thermostat on that fan, so that it moves air in that animal shelter when it gets 95 degrees or hotter under there...but (duh) also an override switch to turn it on for (well...) buffing.

Now picturing a bunch of reddish brown goats (or whatever animals will spend time under that shelter) from the buffing 'dust' exhaust...

[LargeTuba]

For the armature, can’t you just use simichrome or (Gasp) brasso.

I myself like a brushed finish. So how bad is just sand papering it to get that finish. Or should I buy cheap harbor fright sandblast setup and soda blast the horn?

[LeMark]

Instead of starting a new thread Ill put this here.

When my dad died 3 years ago, I inherited all of his tools, including this stand buffer. It seems to be a good one, but the buffing pad is wearing down smaller and smaller, and I'd like to get a replacement, one meant for polishing brass.

I also have some sticks of polish in addition to the green that I don't know their application. White and maybe Grey? Hard to tell. Also some thin buffing pads I know nothing about

Little help?

[bloke]

When large diameter wheels are put on a buffer… particularly a high-speed buffer… You need a rake for the wheel - which cuts cloth away and makes it perfectly balanced all the way around… Like balancing a tire. Otherwise, you can wreck the bearings of your buffing machine – particularly if it’s a machine with long arms, that are long enough to fit way down into a tuba bell interior.

[LeMark]

I have two rakes