F tuba with two fourth valves

[bort2.0]

Okay F tuba people...

On a 5-valve F tuba, what would be the purpose of a 5th valve circuit is the same length as the 4th valve circuit?

A regular 4th valve lowers pitch by 2.5 steps. So I'm talking about a 5th valve that also lowers pitch by 2.5 steps. Is there a name for this setup? Is this common

All I can figure beyond "different options" is that 4-5 together would lower pitch by 5 steps, which is low G... Which is an easier fingering solution for a note that usually requires a lot more valves, and is not usually the most fun note to play on any F tuba.

I don't know much about Vienna F tubas, but is this possible some kind of relic from that setup?

I guess there are other options too:
* Cut the 5th valve circuit to either the normal flat first valve length, or the usual 2 step 5th valve length.
* Get a longer slide to make it a quint valve. But then is that weird to have the 5th valve be a quint valve, instead of a regular 5th valve plus a quint valve?
* Tune the 5th valve to be like a flat 4th valve (ok, now my brain hurts thinking of how that would work).

Thanks!

[UncleBeer]

Are you sure it's not just a really flat 2+3, like Miraphone 5ths used to be on CC?

[bort2.0]

Are you sure it's not just a really flat 2+3, like Miraphone 5ths used to be on CC?

Good thought, but slide all the way in, it's still a a 4th valve. And the previous owner also said it was a 4th. Which I thought he meant the interval, not the valve circuit length.

[dp]

186

[bloke]

It's probably a dependent 5th valve from a YEB-381, except after having passed through a time warp (which - just as with a phonograph - changes the pitch).

[arpthark]

Just thinking mathematically: since a depressing a standard 4th valve tuned to a descending perfect fourth puts an F tuba in the key of C, you'd essentially need a CC-tuba-length "second fourth valve" to play a low G. With the current setup of two similar length slides, it would likely give you an out-of-tune (or maybe in-tune; lucky you!) Ab. Unless it's a compensating F tuba or something.

I'd just cut it to the usual flat whole step, given the option. I had an Alex Vienna style F and didn't run into this problem so I don't think it's related, but I know that Alexander could make any valve any length you wanted. For my old tuba, the "5th valve" (really third valve, left hand) was tuned to a sharp minor third instead of a flat while step. I would typically use 1 2 LH + 3 RH for low B flat (think 124 on a typical F tuba).

[bort2.0]

The fifth valve tubing is wrapped differently than usual, and goes up and behind the tuba (likely, because it was such a large amount of tubing). It might be hard to cut, because it is soldered to the rest of the tuba along the way. And the lacquer is almost 100%, so it'd be a shame to do too much scarring surgery to the tuba.

The slide pull is pretty short as-is, so there's not a lot of option for alternate flat/sharp tuning.

First choice, I'll try to be cool and learn it as-is... But I may see if Miraphone can build me a longer slide to make it a quint valve. That could get awkward though, because it would probably have to wrap upwards in the back. But either way, no major work to the horn.

I appreciate the long bends in tubing for the fifth slide. And also, the VERY tightly tucked away 3rd and 4th valve slides (see them right next to each other in there)?

It's a neat tuba.

[bloke]

re-lacquered, yes?

[arpthark]

The fifth valve tubing is wrapped differently than usual, and goes up and behind the tuba (likely, because it was such a large amount of tubing). It might be hard to cut, because it is soldered to the rest of the tuba along the way. And the lacquer is almost 100%, so it'd be a shame to do too much scarring surgery to the tuba.

The slide pull is pretty short as-is, so there's not a lot of option for alternate flat/sharp tuning.

First choice, I'll try to be cool and learn it as-is... But I may see if Miraphone can build me a longer slide to make it a quint valve. That could get awkward though, because it would probably have to wrap upwards in the back. But either way, no major work to the horn.

I appreciate the long bends in tubing for the fifth slide. And also, the VERY tightly tucked away 3rd and 4th valve slides (see them right next to each other in there)?

It's a neat tuba.

Neat indeed. What brand is it?

[bort2.0]

It's a 1980s Miraphone 181. Possibly the first iteration after the B&S-looking 181 and the modern 181.

[arpthark]

Cool!

My bet is someone lengthened the two whole step circuit for some reason. The nickel-silver sleeves seem awfully long.

If not, I wonder if it was made special in that configuration for the shop or business in Lübeck engraved on the bell.

[bort2.0]

Cool!

My bet is someone lengthened the two whole step circuit for some reason. The nickel-silver sleeves seem awfully long.

If not, I wonder if it was made special in that configuration for the shop or business in Lübeck engraved on the bell.

Oh, I hadn't noticed that... I'll take a closer look and see if I can see any evidence of work that was done. Maybe it would be easy to undo..

Another theory floated to me is that it's kind of a cheater CC tuba... Actuate the 5th valve, and then you can play it like a 4 valve CC tuba. I'll give that a try when I can. Guessing that intonation would be interesting

[arpthark]

Another theory floated to me is that it's kind of a cheater CC tuba... Actuate the 5th valve, and then you can play it like a 4 valve CC tuba. I'll give that a try when I can. Guessing that intonation would be interesting

Yeah, it would really have to have a compensating system for that to work with any useable intonation. Consider: depressing the fourth valve on an F tuba and then playing the tuba as a three-valve CC doesn't really work, so it would be the same principle. Of course, there is the story of AJ taping down the fourth valve of an Eb tuba and playing it as a BBb...

Anyway, very cool tuba, keep us posted!

[cjk]

Some Gronitz F tubas were available with a fifth valve tuned to basically a 2+4 combination. Maybe it was intended to be that? See if you can pull it out far enough to play B and F# ?

[York-aholic]

Have you emailed Miraphone and see if they have any idea what happened here?

[bloke]

LOL…”happened”

[Matt Walters]

Hey Bort 2.0,
The extended tubing lengths like the Quint Valve you can get on some modern F tubas let's you..........(wait for it),

Play lower notes without the sudden change in sound quality of suddenly popping into the pedal register and fingerings. Also opens up some alternate fingering opportunities.

[bort2.0]

Hey Bort 2.0,
The extended tubing lengths like the Quint Valve you can get on some modern F tubas let's you..........(wait for it),

Play lower notes without the sudden change in sound quality of suddenly popping into the pedal register and fingerings. Also opens up some alternate fingering opportunities.

Thanks, Matt! That's about what I had figured, too... Just going to take some brainpower to get it under my fingers. I love the sound.

Kind of curious why they didn't just make it a quint valve then, instead of an additional 2 1/2 step valve. The current 5th slide doesn't allow for very much pull, so I can't get it to lower by an additional full step. How much length would that add to the slide?

If I had Miraphone made a longer 5th slide, I'm wondering if it could just go straight down a little farther, or if it would have to curl back upwards to accommodate the extra length?

I figure it'll either have to go down farther (and not too far so that it's exposed and can be damaged), or curl back upwards (and protrude a bit farther from the rear of the tuba). I guess it could do some silly turn off the the right, as well.

[russiantuba]

@bort2.0 is this the Gronitz "Tritone" 5th valve you speak of? I have never heard of it on a rotor tuba, and I am not sure if the FZ 126 of Gronitz has this option. It is a very unique concept that I am sure has some use.

I started F tuba on a Miraphone 180 with a 23 5th valve (could be operated on either hand, demo model horn). Though I hated it at the time, I would love that kind of set-up to get some evenness to the low F and probably was better in tune than the flat whole step.

[bort2.0]

Have you emailed Miraphone and see if they have any idea what happened here?

I did... End of day on Friday, so they surely won't see it until Monday at the earliest. With August vacations, who knows.

There is no serial number anywhere on the horn that I can see. Just the "shop number" of 86, which is stamped on all of the valve section parts.

Besides the bell engraving, receiver, and paddle bar, is there anywhere else I can check for a serial number? I haven't seen a Miraphone without a serial number before, but I'm sure it's not that uncommon.