Miraphone F tuba update

[jtm]

SUBTOPIC: one model that bort2.0 and bloke actually both owned...

Guess I got lucky. Mine's quite nice. Good C# and D (above middle C), too.

I'm not as happy about my 1965 Bb 186, though. Did bort2.0 and bloke both own that one?

[bort2.0]

SUBTOPIC: one model that bort2.0 and bloke actually both owned...

Guess I got lucky. Mine's quite nice. Good C# and D (above middle C), too.

I'm not as happy about my 1965 Bb 186, though. Did bort2.0 and bloke both own that one?

My 188 was excellent. Sorry that Joe got a dud. I'm thinking that was an outlier. Gold brass isn't for everyone... But still, I think his was just an unfortunate "miss."

I have never owned a 186 of any kind.

I think I know the model Joe is referring to. One with an awful lot of variation, but a sound that makes people okay to deal with it more than they probably should.

[bort2.0]

I heard back from Eva at Miraphone today. Unfortunately, they were unable to identify the model and could only guess that it was a prototype from some point in the past.

Noah at Brass Ark said his Miraphone F has the same 5th (= 4th) configuration as mine. He's going to measure it and get back to me, but it appears that these two tubas are siblings.

[arpthark]

Interesting that it has a mate! You should buy it and leave them in a room together and see if you end up with any little oval euphoniums running around.

How are you liking it so far?

Candid question: does C in the staff exhibit the tendency of other 181s (even though this tuba isn't quite a 181) to creep upwards of 35c sharp?

[York-aholic]

I'm putting together a project horn (Martin Mammoth bows, Holton 340 bell and a 4v set made from two Holton 340 sets). I finally got around to making up a 4th valve circuit. I did it by eyeball, no measurement, just what looked good and fit well...



As it sits now, the 4th is equal to the 23 combination. So I need to add in approximately that of the 2nd tubing.

I think I'll do that, although maybe one could get used to a 2/3 4th valve.

[arpthark]

I'm putting together a project horn (Martin Mammoth bows, Holton 340 bell and a 4v set made from two Holton 340 sets). I finally got around to making up a 4th valve circuit. I did it by eyeball, no measurement, just what looked good and fit well...



As it sits now, the 4th is equal to the 23 combination. So I need to add in approximately that of the 2nd tubing.

I think I'll do that, although maybe one could get used to a 2/3 4th valve.

I have played a couple old Sander (not Sanders) tubas from the turn of the century or thereabouts that came with a two whole step 4th valve. It kind of makes sense:

2 alone = half step
1 alone = whole step
3 alone = one and a half steps
4 alone = two whole steps

You'd get some unusual fingering combinations for common pitches—assuming a BBb tuba, 2+4 for F/C and 1+4 for E/B. I'm thinking 234 would get you a fairly in tune low Eb, though.

[Mary Ann]

I'll be astonished if a rotary F tuba, no matter how weird otherwise, has usable false tones. I mean, it hardly has usable REAL tones in some places, depending of course on whether you grew up in Germany playing one.

[bloke]

I'll be astonished if a rotary F tuba, no matter how weird otherwise, has usable false tones. I mean, it hardly has usable REAL tones in some places, depending of course on whether you grew up in Germany playing one.

OK...You got me curious.
Candidly, I've never tried them before with my F tuba...but they don't seem all that bad, agreed?
Then again, it's not a Miraphone/Buffet/Adams/Willson/Yamaha, so (being a junky old off-brand tuba) it must be either an anomaly, it sounds worse to y'all than it does to me, or I'm pantomiming someone's else audio...
(I played it - in this video - as if a 3-valve "marching" F tuba.)

I've never been to Germany, but the overwhelming majority of the immigrants (who contributed their DNA) came to the USA from there...
...oh yeah, and I can recognize the German language (or fake versions of it - such as Tim Conway/Harvey Korman comedy skits, etc.) when spoken on TV shows.

[Mary Ann]

I'd listen to that if I could figure out how. I freely admit that I was never able to get a really good hold on the low C area on my MW 182, and have had similar problems with the low Bb on both my rotary Eb tubas. Occasionally it sounds /feels just fine but I can't figure out how I did it, or even immediately reproduce it. Most of the time it's weak and woofy. It appears to be something you have to "find out how to do" and I haven't found it yet. Day after tomorrow I'm off to hack at a tuba part in a newly forming multi-instrument "German music" band, probably an oom-pah band and probably at about my level. There will be a BBb player there too so I can take upper octaves which I do well.

[bloke]

I'd listen to that if I could figure out how. I freely admit that I was never able to get a really good hold on the low C area on my MW 182, and have had similar problems with the low Bb on both my rotary Eb tubas. Occasionally it sounds /feels just fine but I can't figure out how I did it, or even immediately reproduce it. Most of the time it's weak and woofy. It appears to be something you have to "find out how to do" and I haven't found it yet. Day after tomorrow I'm off to hack at a tuba part in a newly forming multi-instrument "German music" band, probably an oom-pah band and probably at about my level. There will be a BBb player there too so I can take upper octaves which I do well.

You would need to fish around and un-check the default muted play.
It's easier to find on a laptop or desktop, than on a phone.

I'm thinking of releasing it as part of a c.d. (and/or stick it on one of them newfangled Spotify" or "Apple Music" accounts, etc.) entitled,
"Scales - My Way - dammit"

[Casca Grossa]

I'd listen to that if I could figure out how. I freely admit that I was never able to get a really good hold on the low C area on my MW 182, and have had similar problems with the low Bb on both my rotary Eb tubas. Occasionally it sounds /feels just fine but I can't figure out how I did it, or even immediately reproduce it. Most of the time it's weak and woofy. It appears to be something you have to "find out how to do" and I haven't found it yet. Day after tomorrow I'm off to hack at a tuba part in a newly forming multi-instrument "German music" band, probably an oom-pah band and probably at about my level. There will be a BBb player there too so I can take upper octaves which I do well.

You would need to fish around and un-check the default muted play.
It's easier to find on a laptop or desktop, than on a phone.

I'm thinking of releasing it as part of a c.d. (and/or stick it on one of them newfangled Spotify" or "Apple Music" accounts, etc.) entitled,
"Scales - My Way - dammit"

@bloke there is not enough clanky rotor accompaniment

[jtm]

...
* Confirmed that yes, the 5th valve circuit is the same length as the 4th. No slide pulling made it significantly more or less in any direction.
* That said, the double 4th valve setup actually works quite well! As a person who hasn't played F tuba all that much, I have no old habits or automaticity to unlearn, and I'm sure that's big for me. I didn't READ any music, just scales and playing things from memory or by ear. For me, starting in that range (the open F) feels very natural to me. Especially going into the low range and downwards, it just seems like the fingering patterns are pretty easy and natural, using the 4th and 5th valves for low stuff. I'll have to work out a fingering chart, but for an hour of face time on the horn, it was pretty much just "here's your 5th valve, learn how to use it or don't. But this is what it is." And when you just handle it like that, you'll do just fine with what you've got.
...

If the 5th is (or can be) a little flatter than 4th -- by about as much as a normal flat-whole-step 5th valve is -- then Bb is 1-5 and slightly flatter than 1-4. And you get a choice of B natural as sharp (2-4) or very slightly flat (2-5). And 3-5 should be pretty good for A.

[jtm]

I'll be astonished if a rotary F tuba, no matter how weird otherwise, has usable false tones. I mean, it hardly has usable REAL tones in some places, depending of course on whether you grew up in Germany playing one.

Is playing rotary F not a skill that happens naturally if you an play decently on a rotary contrabass tuba and a normal euphonium, since it's in between?

[tubanh84]

I'd listen to that if I could figure out how. I freely admit that I was never able to get a really good hold on the low C area on my MW 182, and have had similar problems with the low Bb on both my rotary Eb tubas. Occasionally it sounds /feels just fine but I can't figure out how I did it, or even immediately reproduce it. Most of the time it's weak and woofy. It appears to be something you have to "find out how to do" and I haven't found it yet. Day after tomorrow I'm off to hack at a tuba part in a newly forming multi-instrument "German music" band, probably an oom-pah band and probably at about my level. There will be a BBb player there too so I can take upper octaves which I do well.

I’ve been playing my 182 for 15 years now. I got it because of how well that register played in comparison to the PT10 I had been using.

The trick for me on my horn is to use the 5th valve down there. So C=125 B=235

The only note I’ve never been happy with on any F tuba is the low A. But I’ve also never been happy with the low E on any CC tuba except my current one with a major third fifth valve .

[Mary Ann]

That actually goes along with my conclusion that that low C wanted to slot sharp. (And there was that guy whose low C suddenly appeared after he dropped his mouthpiece on his tuba and dented it, creating a new node.) By using the 5th valve you are slotting it lower. I think a lot of my problem is simply lack of air supply, combined with resistance from all those valves and tubing. In any case, I "can" play the low Bb, but not for very long due to air. And if I'm Oom-pah-ing and basically blasting, it works fine, but I also note that I "adjust" my embouchure to more lower lip. Way different than the same pitch on a CC.

I find it somewhat amusing that the data exists that it is a node problem, but the arrogance factor prevents anyone from making any changes to rotary F tuba design.

[bloke]

Arrogance, mouthpiece-dropping, or steamroller…I hope no one changes the design of my F tuba.

[bort2.0]

But I’ve also never been happy with the low E on any CC tuba except my current one with a major third fifth valve .

I agree... So many CC tubas have turdy low E and low Eb. In my experience, a CC tuba with good low E and Eb is good everywhere else, too.

@jtm, yes, I think it's a skill that can occur pretty naturally. It does for me, at least... Takes a short amount of time to figure out the "if I do this, it sounds like that" relationship of everything. Get to the point where "that" is something you like hearing and "this" isn't a crazy amount of effort, and you're all set.

[jtm]

How are the false tones on it?

I'll be astonished if a rotary F tuba, no matter how weird otherwise, has usable false tones. I mean, it hardly has usable REAL tones in some places, depending of course on whether you grew up in Germany playing one.

OK...You got me curious.
Candidly, I've never tried them before with my F tuba...but they don't seem all that bad, agreed?
Then again, it's not a Miraphone/Buffet/Adams/Willson/Yamaha, so (being a junky old off-brand tuba) it must be either an anomaly, it sounds worse to y'all than it does to me, or I'm pantomiming someone's else audio...
(I played it - in this video - as if a 3-valve "marching" F tuba.)

...

I realize these were mostly jokes, but ... they're actually helping me.

I'm new to F tuba, starting with an old German rotary, and finding the false tones is helping me get better sounds for the real tones. It's also helping with the C3 that's way too sharp (though I'll probably just play it with the 4th valve most of the time). So, thanks, everybody!

[bloke]

Yeah…
That second space C is the primary stumbling block of about 98% of all F tubas (what an important pitch to suck so bad! ), and I wouldn’t own one – were it not for the one that I own, and a few like it.

[Mary Ann]

So for that second space C you must be reading treble clef? That would be a hell of a note. I can hit the Bb below that but haven't ever tried for the C.